Asriel, Coulter, Metatron, and the Abyss

[Vicinity of Obscenity]

If I remember correctly that was one of the stipulations that hindered Will and Lyra from seeing each other. The dust that escaped the parallel worlds via the window from the world of the dead AND the abyss were the only points that were allowed to remain open. One for the necessity of leaving it open and the other because it was so extensive that it couldn't be closed up.

[Jez]

No, Xaphania says that the angels will close up the abyss as well. The window for the dead is the only one that remains open. All the others are closed. I'm going purely by memory here too, so if anyone can confirm this...

[Riali]

"There is the terrible abyss made by the bomb, and there is the great opening Lord Asriel made out of his own world. They must both be closed, and they will."

[shruikan_shade]

It would seem we are never going to agree on exactly what the abyss is, or what occurs inside it. Although it was implied in TAS that the abyss was a form of "bottomless pit" (quote?), I think it would be plausible to interpret that as no more than a simple manner of describing it, to avoid having to launch into a hideously long, complex and fairly irrelevant (in terms of the immediate plot) description. What we can infer from the text on the whole is that the abyss was caused by the bomb (though we don't know exactly how) and that it is the "nothingness" which we have previously experienced as the sides of the inter-universal windows.

As far as Coulter, Asriel and Metatron are concerned, I think we can also infer that the "fall" into the abyss constituted the end of all three of them (someone has already mentioned Lyra's theory that one's ghost would not return to the WotD if it fell into the abyss). As far as the fairness of Asriel and Coulter's fate is concerned, it is not a question of whether or not they deserved it as such, that could be debated for thousands of pages im sure. Their sacrifice seems to be drawing a (quasi-)parallel between Lyra and Will's own sacrifice at the end of TAS. Of course there are differences between the two, but they basic principle - great personal sacrifice for the "greater good" (as much as using that phrase makes me want to claw myself apart) reverberates throughout the two.

The eventual and exact fates of the three are best left to the interpretation of the reader; free to be interpreted as we wish. Though if we are to get a "definitive" answer, it will surely come in the Book of Dust.

[will parry hopeful]

i thought that the abyss was sort of like a spectre because it makes them and that Asriel, Coulter and Metatron would of had the life sucked out of them as sonn as they fell in

[Halo Nerd]

EDIT: Whoops, didn't notice this topic was being discussed already...anyway here's my contribution to it.

Don't worry about it. A carefully constructed post goes a long way.

Anyways so they took Metatron (A.K.A Transformer RIPOFF)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron

Do some research first. I think this term was used before transformers.

I think/hope this was satire from Halo Nerd. The Transformers character was Megatron.

I knew it was used before transformers, I just felt like mentioning it because I finished watching Transformers and thought it was funny that they sounded so close.

[BadKitty]

Isn't the Abyss in the world of the dead? Doesn't the window from the world of the dead open into the world of the mulefa? How did Asriel get to the Abyss?

This was a question I had as well. When Will and Lyra left the window from the WoTD, they were in the midst of the battleground. Later in the world of the Mulefa, they find a window where they see all the dead leaving the WoTD.

Did I miss something?

[Riali]

There was a bit where it explained the nature of the abyss as so huge and crazily world shattering that it sent cracks and fissures and blurred edges of nothingness into all sorts of worlds. I'd give the quote, but I'm at work...

[BadKitty]

There was a bit where it explained the nature of the abyss as so huge and crazily world shattering that it sent cracks and fissures and blurred edges of nothingness into all sorts of worlds. I'd give the quote, but I'm at work...

Gotcha. thnx.

[Belgario]

:: Yeah 1st post ::

I just finished listening to the audio book version about a week ago (so forgive some potential spelling errors) but my understanding of how Asriel could get down to where the Abyss was is as follows:

Will cut an exit out of the land of the dead to let the ghosts out (this was in the mulefa world), they went out and rested in that world breifly but then went back into the world of the dead to cut another exit into where Lord Asriel was so they could find their demons and let the "fighting" ghosts out into the battle. I assumed Lord Asriel just used this opening to get to the Abyss. One thing I was wondering though is how the daemons were able to enter the world of the dead (where the Abyss was) with Asriel and Coulter since daemons were not allowed to enter the land of the dead? What do you all think (or maybe I was wrong about some things?)

[MojaveByrd]

I figured since they didn't enter the abyss by boat the way Will and Lyra did, there was no one forbidding their daemons to go with them.

[tyche]

I don't think daemons entering world of the dead was just something the boatman enforced though, more of a law of nature. After all Will had his daemon ripped out of him as he entered too.
Maybe that stretch of water they went over with the boatman didn't allow daemons rather than the actual world of the dead. Actually that could tie in quite nicely since Paradise Lost and The Divine Comedy both involve difficult crossings over the river styx, which is presumably the river in the World of the Dead.

[Sebbie]

The abyss isn't actually in the world of the dead, that just happens to be the first place we encounter it. Rather, it seems like it's actually a rip in the very fabric between worlds. The point it, the abyss isn't actually in one particular world, but is in every single world simultaneously. Coulter and Asriel never went to the world of the dead because the part of the abyss into which they pushed Metatron wasn't in the world of the dead.

Sorry if this was a bit poorly written, it just seems that lots of people think Coulter and Asriel went into the world of the dead when I'm pretty sure they didn't...of course, I could be wrong.

[Riali]

The abyss isn't actually in the world of the dead, that just happens to be the first place we encounter it. Rather, it seems like it's actually a rip in the very fabric between worlds. The point it, the abyss isn't actually in one particular world, but is in every single world simultaneously. Coulter and Asriel never went to the world of the dead because the part of the abyss into which they pushed Metatron wasn't in the world of the dead.

Sorry if this was a bit poorly written, it just seems that lots of people think Coulter and Asriel went into the world of the dead when I'm pretty sure they didn't...of course, I could be wrong.

Yes, exactly. That's what I was trying to say a few posts up, but you've managed it much more eloquently than i did.