The Republic of Heaven

Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

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Postby Soapy » Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:57 pm

I don't. I think Iorek's leadership has led them away from that path for now. Perhaps in the very distant future they will evolve, but for now Iorek stopped it.
I agree, Iofur was trying to lead them that way, but it was not natural for them.
Iofur wanted to lead them that way, but he was never going to succeed.
They could be tricked, unlike Iorek.
Iorek was tricked too, you know. He was tricked into drinking, remember?

I reckon that Iorek could easily have led them down that road, but I don't think he wanted to. And that's fair enough.
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Postby Jez » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:42 pm

Regarding your other comments, I'll agree to disagree with you on some of them. It is possible to say the priest was 'superstitious', but he did nevertheless believe that there was more to Iorek's armor that metal. And although Mary said that their scientific team noted that Dust was attracted to objects of 'human' workmanship, I think she would agree that Dust is probably attracted to all works developed by conscious minds, humans or otherwise. (Remember the muleefa, who are certainly 'people', but not of our 'human' species.)
Yes, there is a distinction between people and animals in the books. But where would you place the bears? It's a tough one, they seem kind of in between, hence all the evolution theories, but I still don't think they're people yet. The bears are much more animal, for lack of a better word, than the mulefa.
I believe that the bear's armor is the product of conscious thought, although I can see how others may not think so. And as far as the armor being a bear's 'soul', well, that is a direct quote from Iorek. I don't think any other bears in the books say it. On the other hand, IIRC, the only bears that said anything in the books were Iorek and Iofur! When Iorek says 'a bear's armor is his soul', he is saying that he thinks this his how all bears feel about their armor. Otherwise, he would have said something like 'My armor is my soul.'
Still, when Iorek said that, he compared his armour to Pantalaimon. He might not have meant it literally. It's open to interpretation. I would take the view that armour is more of a soul substitute than an actual soul, because as the book states, bears have no daemons.
And I think he was definitely weak in spirit when his armor was stolen from him; I mean, look at how he was living! He lived behind a bar, was drinking, and basically seemed to make himself a prisoner of what looked to me like a depressing life. If that isn't 'weak in spirit', I don't know what is.
Well, I guess he was depressed after being banished from Svalbard, losing the kingship and then having his armour taken away... No wonder he turned to drink. :P But he wasn't like any characters whose daemons have been cut away/eaten by Spectres. I don't think his depression was some kind of diluted reaction to losing his soul...
I think what Iorek felt when the armor was missing was more than just a lack of physical protection. He felt like a part of himself was missing. Note how he describes to Lyra about when he made his armor out of 'sky metal', and says that until he made the armor, he felt 'incomplete'. I'm sure he didn't feel nearly as 'incomplete' as someone from Lyra's world that has undergone the horror of having their daemon severed. I do believe that what Iorek felt was a much lesser degree of the same thing. I do agree that when Iorek says 'a bear's armor is his soul', that the armor is not a soul like ours. I think Iorek is saying that an armored bear's soul is distinctly different from a human's, but as far as the bears are concerned, it is a soul nevertheless.
Good point. But I don't think it was a lesser degree of the same thing... As I understand it, you either have a daemon or you don't. Either you attract Dust or you don't. Remember, Mary Malone mentioned a sudden change in human history, when humans suddenly became conscious. The way it was written made it seem almost like an instant thing, not a gradual process. Perhaps bears could evolve to the point where they had a soul, but they wouldn't have some kind of semi-soul... Their armour is a poor replacement, not an actual soul.
I do believe that the bears will continue to evolve consciousness, and keep attacting more and more Dust. And someday, some bear will be doing something like help his son make his first set of armor, and some sort of creature will materialize out of the bear's Dust, and be the first bear daemon! That would be an amazing thing to see!
It's possible but I don't think they're going there any time soon. Iorek wanted to return to traditional bear ways. I think he prefers being an animal! 8) He was troubled when he thought he was doubting like a human, after all.
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Postby Ripper » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:10 pm

They could be tricked, unlike Iorek.
Iorek was tricked too, you know. He was tricked into drinking, remember?
But only because he was acting as a human. Bears can't be tricked when they're acting as bears.
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Postby EngineerScholar » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:59 pm

I don't. I think Iorek's leadership has led them away from that path for now. Perhaps in the very distant future they will evolve, but for now Iorek stopped it.

I think Iofur was trying to 'force' the evolution of the bears to evolve into fully conscious beings with daemons. I also agree that Iorek at least thinks he had lead the bears away from that evolutionary path. But in the end, I think the leadership actions of these bears have pushed the evolution of the bears in opposite directions to what Iofur and Iorek intended.

Iofur seemed to think that by imitating humans, a bear (or at least Iofur) would 'evolve' to the point where they could obtain a daemon. I agree with Ripper's comment that this lifestyle was not 'natural' for the bears, and I believe that by living an unnatural lifestyle, the bears would have repelled Dust. I think the bears in Iofur's 'palace' were just going through the motions of a meaningless lifestyle; I think that this would discourage the evolution of consciousness, rather than encourage it.

On the other hand, I think that Iorek's leading the bears back to their 'traditional' lifestyle may encourage the growth of the bears' consciousness. Since the bears have rejected what must have been meaningless trappings and constraints of their lifestyle under Iofur, their lives and actions are now more meaningful and free. Although I agree that if he could, Iorek would like to stop the bears' evolution, I don't think it is in his power. Just in the time we observed Iorek in the trilogy, we saw Iorek develop loving relationships with other beings, and make at least one very complex decision. (I am referring to his decision to repair the knife, when he wasn't fully aware of the consequences of that decision. Even with Lyra's advice from the alethiometer at his disposal, that must have been a tough call for him to make.) Despite his own desires, I think Iorek has evolved.

I can't help but wonder if the other bears, in their wanderings and explorations of the world, will also start to contemplate the things around them, and start to wonder more about the world. These are the things that I think will lead the bears to get more Dust and finally get daemons. So, I think the evolution of the bears will happen whether Iorek wants it to or not.

I have this picture of one day a daemon appearing at Iorek's shoulder, and him telling this creature 'Get lost, I'm trying to hunt', or something like that. He will probably growl at her, take swipes at her, and try to run from her, but no matter what he does, the daemon won't leave him alone..

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Dust is NOT attracted to consciousness, but to "experie

Postby EWAdams » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:17 am

Children are conscious but don't attract Dust. Dust is not attracted to consciousness but to "experience" in William Blake's sense, the opposite of "innocence." Pullman appears to suggest that it occurs with puberty, and is at least partly sexual in nature, but love and loss are also part of it. The great theme of The Amber Spyglass is the pain and loss of growing up... and some of the new things that come with it as well. The "sex" scene near the end bears this out (where Will touches Lyra's daemon -- the ultimate intimacy, just as doing so forcibly and without permission is the ultimate violation in Lyra's world).

Panserbjoerne are conscious, but I'm not sure that they are "experienced" in the Blake sense; rather I think Blake would have said they were "innocent" because they are essentially animal in nature. Therefore I conclude that they don't have Dust.
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby shady » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:00 pm

Maybe they atract little dust,maybe when they act like men.But maybe they dont atract dust after all.What would Pullman answer to this?
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby Serenula » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:55 am

No. The armored bears wouldn't attract Dust because they don't have daemons. At least that's the way I saw it. I see their intelligence closer to instinct, like in the chapter Fencing. But when they act like humans, I guess they let their guard down and stop going on instinct and can be tricked by humans. But that's just what I think.
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby kaoshoneybun » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:27 am

I think EWAdams & Jez have a good thing going :D

I think the bears are conscious but not 'experienced' - they are intelligent but mostly live by instinct, they are like children, they have grace.

This is more explicit if you read 'On the Marionette Theatre' which Pullman cites as a main source of inspiration - there is a scene where a bear fights by grace and cannot be tricked by false lunges...sounds familiar hey?

It does look like they are on the path to higher intelligence though - especially with all this craftsmanship.

I can understand Pullman's disgust at talking-animal characters that are really just humans in fur - but he sucessfully avoids this with the mulefa, they are definatley intelligent people but clearly alien and not human. Bears could gain this level not to far in the future.

Slightly off-topic but related question: Mulefa don't have daemons do they? But they collect Dust. I think we can assume they have the internal equivalant like the people of our world. Just thinking its not necessary that the Panserbjorne have a daemon to collect Dust...although it would indeed make fun fanfic!
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby shady » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:33 am

Ok,but do they have daemons?Iorek said that his armor is his soul,but they maybe have them inside them not knowing.
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby Serenula » Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:48 pm

I don't think so... when Iorek travels to the world with Cittagaze to feast on Lee's flesh he doesn't see any Specters. However, there might not have been any Specters there at the moment. I dunno, I just think they don't.
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby shady » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:00 am

Maybe Spectres atack only humans,or he doesnt have dust.
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Re: Do Panserbjoerne have Dust?

Postby Garfed » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:03 am

It makes you wonder if Bear is not sufficient to be soiled in the process of biological evolution possible. Hnau they showed the characteristics of, for example, many - whether the intent of polypropylene - they come and more people are mostly animals....
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