Angels - rather murky figures?

[MichaelR]

Is it just me or are Xaphania's angels rather murky at best, and hardly much better than the other side?

As a reward for John Parry's faithful service, his angel guardians let a witch kill him as soon as "his function is completed". That's called treachery in my book. (And if I, as I was at age 12, was in Will's place, I'd be delivering the Knife to the other side on the next page, thinking "they betrayed my father and THEY ALL DESERVE TO DIE"!)

Then they *specially* work towards making Lyra and Will, initially friends, fall in love - knowing from the beginning they'd have to be separated. OK, that much was required, but...

Thanks to Pyr on the loopholes thread for pointing this out - when the job is done, the angels actually insist on the separation. Xaphania closes the natural windows so that W&L would not "spend a lifetime" looking for them - why not tell them where they are instead? These lads did you a great service, defeated your enemies, saved your world, and that's how you repay them? Just so they would be at work like little obedient ants building YOUR Republic YOUR way, never mind their wishes?

That's a very well known and rather bad sort of Republic. A republican dictatorship. Expect the gulags next? Well that last one may be an overstatement, but tell me, what is good about the angels apart from the badness of their enemies?

One starts to wonder, in this case, what information the Angels might have withheld - or lied about. And ultimately, whether someone wants the Authority's place, too.

(Note: I assume here that the HDM text is a neutral and totally correct report. However I don't think it states, in "author's words", that the words from any character represent the objective truth).

[MojaveByrd]

Interesting comments. Next time I read the books, which will be soon, I am going to take a much closer look at the angels and their agenda.

[jessia]

it's been a few years since i've read TAS, but i think you're giving the influence of the angels far too much credit. to protect or not to protect john parry is one thing, but i do not believe the angels govern the circumstances that require will and lyra's separation. by closing even the natural windows, i believe they are allowing will and lyra to live lives that won't be wrapped up in searching for an impossible ending (i don't think those natural windows are necessarily easily accessible, or even completely known, even to angels - they have to be discovered) so that they can actually grow up and lead full lives (devoted to those things celebrated on the theme of dust) without having to move back and forth unnaturally so that their daemons don't get sick in... full lives that they personally believe in. pullman's philosophy does not exactly promote selfish love, so it'd be strange if his protagonists were to pursue it in a story that basically saves the world with the hope that people will not act so selfishly.

[Ishka]

at first i felt the same like you do. the angel could reward the sacrifices will & lyra made to safe all worlds und the will force them to live separated. but it was in themselves that the have to do what the do. it their "believe", their inner alethiometer that tells them to act like this. no angel could force them to do something, especially not will because of the knife.

it take quite a time for me to realize it. but this comforts me.

[shady]

My thoughts too...Now,i think that xaphania could at least teach lyra and will how to pass to another world without crossing through windows,coz angels could do it,she said..also she pointed that Lyra could learn it(without telling her how,or even where to start or look)Makes me really angry,wich points that maybe angels want to keep their secrets only for themselves,hiding them selfishly from humans.

[MojaveByrd]

This is somewhat off topic but this topic made me think of it. IF a window was left open for Lyra and Will to visit each other, and, IF, when they were older Lyra became pregnant with Will's child where would that child be able to live? Would it be able to live in both worlds without detrimental effects? If born in Lyra's world would it be different than if born in Will's world? I know it's all speculation, but it occurred to me as I was reading the latest entry to this topic.

If someone feels it needs to be moved to a different thread, please do so.

[shady]

This is somewhat off topic but this topic made me think of it. IF a window was left open for Lyra and Will to visit each other, and, IF, when they were older Lyra became pregnant with Will's child where would that child be able to live? Would it be able to live in both worlds without detrimental effects? If born in Lyra's world would it be different than if born in Will's world? I know it's all speculation, but it occurred to me as I was reading the latest entry to this topic.

If someone feels it needs to be moved to a different thread, please do so.

I think that child could live in the world were it is born,nowhere else.

[LadyHawke]

Hmmm, interesting discussion.

I liked Pullman's portrayal of the angels, I have always viewed the possibility of such beings as being as diverse and complicated in thier alliances and loyalities as we humans are. I rather liked that they weren't the 'good guys' either, that they seemed to be using people as a means to an end as well, much like Asriel did. Albeit a 'good' end, but still pretty machavellian as to how they got there. For angels to be as complex as humans in thier polarizations was pretty clever and spot on of Pullman.

Now as to the VERY interesting side discussion, as to IF Lyra and Will had left a window open for them, and if they had a child, I would think it wudda been born in Lyra's world, for one for Lyra's health and two cuz then the child wudda known thier daemon more readily. But the child, while visiting 'dad' in another world, wudda undoubtably lived with Lyra in her world. That is how I wudda set it up.

But honestly, if Will and Lyra hadn't have been seperated, who knows what wudda been the outcome of their relationship. Perhaps in time it wudda fizzled, they wudda fell 'outta' love as happens sometimes....

[shady]

But honestly, if Will and Lyra hadn't have been seperated, who knows what wudda been the outcome of their relationship. Perhaps in time it wudda fizzled, they wudda fell 'outta' love as happens sometimes....

I dont think they would fell out of love..They are born for each other.

[LadyHawke]

True, tho I think (jmho) that time and over-familiarity is the true test of any relationship, and that was the one thing they didn't have. Seems that 'true love' is so rare in ANY world, and especially for it to stand the test of time....

[MojaveByrd]

Well, there are lots of conjectures that could be made regarding a child of Lyra and Will. Maybe the unique combination of L-World genes and W-World genes would create a hybrid so totally different (genetically) that it would be yet another species of humans - maybe able to do special things - like move through the two worlds (and maybe others) without the problem of illness or spectres.

What I was thinking in my original post on this subject was a comparison of child custody as we have it here: 6 months a year with Lyra and 6 months a year with Will.