Who wins the war?

[Yrael]

What i am saying is that, it is possible that eventually one side wins so much that they gain control over the other side.

[bharned1]

The Magisterium might have been more militarily than the Republic forces, but it says at the end, when Lyra gets back to Oxford, that Church had been taken over by cooler-minded people. I'm sure some extremist-Church guys were still around, but thats nothing good-guys can't handle. After all, Lyra did say that they had work to do.

[will parry hopeful]

i think it is obvouis that asriel's side won because although both sides leaders died there was still someone to rule over is asriel got killed(Lyra) but no one if Metranon died

[tyche]

Slightly off topic but would the church have actually noticed that the fall had happened? Because if not wouldn't Lyra still be in danger from them?

[Yrael]

A good question, but i personally think that she would be protected now, by jordan and her new school, and other people and beings.

[bharned1]

I'm sure there would be some survivors who liked the Magisterium's ways. Look at Hitler in the Second World War, he tried to set up an insurgency after Germany was defeated. If the Magisterium did that, it could get ugly. Could make a pretty cool fan fiction story.

[Yrael]

yes i doubt that no-one would restart the magestirium.

[Halo Nerd]

Well the prophecy was achieved and sad as it was to realize he WAS a good guy and then DIES Asriel took down Metatron (Any relations to a certain Decepticon?) It says in TAS that the church instated insane laws and got really crazy but just as swiftly it died down. I'd say that the war is neither won nor over nor continuing. It's stalled.

If I DIDN'T say that. I'de say: "LYRA FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!! WOOOOOOO LYRA!!!!!"

[bharned1]

The Magisterium doesn't have to be in full power to deal some serious hurt. Just look at the Taliban. US forces shattered them, but some survived. Now, they've spread throughout Afghanistan and Pakistan. They've caused unimaginable pain and suffering. They assasinated Benzair Bhutto for goodness sake! All the unrest in Pakistan, with President Musharaff, is a result of the Taliban. Now, the Magisterium is every bit as fanatical and ruthless as the Taliban. Even a small group of loyalist humans and angels could de-stabilize the Republic, as well as jeporadize Will and Lyra's lives.

[MojaveByrd]

OK. I read the book twice, and I read all 3 pages of this thread and I'm still very confused.

Asriel wasn't good (as someone in the thread said). He wanted to destroy the Authority. He wanted to destroy Dust. OK, so he won one and lost one. And, he believed that the ends justifies the means.

Coulter wasn't good. I will never believe that she actually cared for Lyra. She wanted to destroy Dust. She also believed that the ends justifies the means. She is exactly what Metatron called her. She lost.

Metatron was an example of absolute power corrupting absolutely. Metatron was made of Dust so he wouldnt' want Dust to be destroyed. He lost his kingdom but Dust survived.

Will and Lyra fulfilled the prophecy. What exactly was that prophecy that caused the "Fall?" Was it them falling in love? (Which I have a hard time with considering their ages). Was it them sacrificing their love for the good of the universe? (Pretty altruistic considering their ages). Was it them opening a window from the WofD? Apparently the "Fall" was not a fall at all but a good thing. It preserved Dust.

So who won? IMO Dust won.

Other things in this thread: When a choice is made in one world another world is created with the choice(s) not made. So when a window is closed on one world, a new world is created with an open window making it a futile battle to close all the windows. So wouldn't Dust lose in the end afterall?

I agree that most of the people in the worlds would not be aware that the Authority died. Life would go on as usual. And the Authority wasn't the creator anyway. The church would certainly bury that knowledge and life would go on as usual. The church would still teach of sin and heaven and hell in order to preserve its power by instilling fear in the masses (no pun intended). Most people would think that Will and Lyra are heretics or nuts. Would the average person believe in windows to other worlds?
Where does that leave the creation of the Republic of Heaven? I was taught that our life on earth is heaven or hell - it's what we make of it. We create our own purpose. So the Republic of Heaven would live in each person's psyche, or, perhaps daemon. Can a Republic of Heaven be created for everyone or only for ones' self?

BTW, in my U.S. version there is nothing at the end that tells what happens after it's all over. Why would they leave that stuff out???

Sorry this was so long, and, possibly rambling.

[bharned1]

The thread, at least how I take it, is more about whether Asriels forces or the Magisteriums forces win the war. Another possibility for the outcome is this: the revolution simply petered out. This has happened before in history, where a revolution only suceeds in exchanging onbe poor governent for another.

[MojaveByrd]

I also thought that the priorities and purposes changed. In the beginning, didn't Asriel want to destroy Dust, too? He ended up wanting to destroy the Authority (who is not the creator) and build the Republic of Heaven. Did Asriel know this? Then he wanted to destroy Metatron. I doubt that any of the things that happened had any effect on the church.

[tyche]

He didn't want to destroy Dust, he was lying to try and persuade Mrs Coulter to join him.
His prioritys didn't change when he took on Metatron over the Authority because Metatron held the real power over the Kingdom of Heaven.
But agreed none of that has much bearing on the church.

I don't think Asriel was ever trying to destroy the church, he has much higher goals than that and his servant says somewhere the church is too weak, it's not worth the fight. So basically they win as Dust is preserved and the Kingdom of Heaven is pretty much destroyed, meaning the whole universe is saved. However things probably aren't very different in Lyra's world, the magisterium still has power (although it mentions more moderate factions have taken control since the consistorial court is without a leader).

[daemonpurra]

both leaders of the war on both sides died so that makes it eaven on their part, but the church was all over the place in lyras world and asriels force only existed in his world even though there were creatures from all over the place. SO if people from asriels world survived then maybe it lived on but there is no way to tell so seeing as the church did live on i guess it is safe to say that metatron won.

I know i already voted for asriel so shut up okee dokee.