Worlds with Names

[SoulLily]

Ok, this question has been bugging me for a while: Why is Cittagazze the only world with a name?

Just thought this would be an interesting topic for discussion... Here's my theory:
Cittagazze (or was it Ci'gazze? I can never remember which is world and which is city ) was spoken of as the world that connected the rest, like a crossroads. Perhaps they named their world because they knew others existed, while in Lyra's world they didn't know about them at first. We don't have a name for our world... It's just "the world", and most people don't believe there are others out there.

Opinions?

[Riali]

I don't think that the Cittagazze world actually had a name. Interdimensional- Travellers just used the city name to refer to the whole world, because that was where the knife was from, and hence the crossroads. There's no need for a society to give a name to their world until traffic between worlds gets heavy enough for "What world are you from?" to become a logical question to ask someone.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Exactly. I'd assume that each of the universes simply called itself 'the universe' or 'the world'. Since the many-worlds theory was heresy in Lyra's world at least, and was not believed in our world, we can probably assume that most worlds did not even consider the possibility of other worlds existing.

[Annernanner]

Cittagazze was the city that Will and Lyra found. The world was just a cross-road world, and like many others, it had no name.

[Enitharmon]

Ok, this question has been bugging me for a while: Why is Cittagazze the only world with a name?

Cittagazze isn't a world, it's a city in a world which doesn't, as far as we know, have a name. Worlds probably don't have names because most of the people who live in them don't know of the existence of any others, so they don't need to distinguish.

Those of us who write fanfics, and others with an interest in distinguishing between worlds, have their own schemes, such as L-World for Lyra's world, C-World for the world of Cittagazze, M-world for the world of the mulefa, W-World for Will's world (and don't get me started on whether Will's world is the same as 'our' world - it isn't!)

[portent]

(and don't get me started on whether Will's world is the same as 'our' world - it isn't!)

Does your edition of the book not explicitly say that Wills world is "our own world?"

[AUST]

Indeed, Wills world is 'our' world.

[Enitharmon]

(and don't get me started on whether Will's world is the same as 'our' world - it isn't!)

Does your edition of the book not explicitly say that Wills world is "our own world?"

No - does yours? In the text I mean. I think the publisher may have put in a note to that effect but that doesn't make it true.

Indeed, Wills world is 'our' world.

The world that Will comes from is a literary construct, no more and no less than the world of Cittagazze, or the world Lyra comes from. Think about it for a moment - in the world in which you and I reside, is there or has there ever been a boy called Will Parry from Winchester with a schizophrenic mother called Elaine and a father called John who vanishes on an expedition to the Arctic? A department of the Clarendon Laboratory headed by a Dr Mary Malone? A member of the Security Forces called Sir Charles Latrom with a snake up his sleeve with his home in one of the buildings of the Oxford Brookes University in Headington Hill?

[portent]

The world that Will comes from is a literary construct, no more and no less than the world of Cittagazze, or the world Lyra comes from. Think about it for a moment - in the world in which you and I reside, is there or has there ever been a boy called Will Parry from Winchester with a schizophrenic mother called Elaine and a father called John who vanishes on an expedition to the Arctic? A department of the Clarendon Laboratory headed by a Dr Mary Malone? A member of the Security Forces called Sir Charles Latrom with a snake up his sleeve with his home in one of the buildings of the Oxford Brookes University in Headington Hill?

You mean it's...fiction?!!

[AUST]

The world that Will comes from is a literary construct, no more and no less than the world of Cittagazze, or the world Lyra comes from. Think about it for a moment - in the world in which you and I reside, is there or has there ever been a boy called Will Parry from Winchester with a schizophrenic mother called Elaine and a father called John who vanishes on an expedition to the Arctic? A department of the Clarendon Laboratory headed by a Dr Mary Malone? A member of the Security Forces called Sir Charles Latrom with a snake up his sleeve with his home in one of the buildings of the Oxford Brookes University in Headington Hill?

Fair point, hoever Pullman himself has stated that Wills world is supposed to be ours, it has not divulged down a redically diffrent perhapse these people exist.

What your doing is nit-picking. ITs a fictional story, so every world is going to be 'fictional' however Wills world is, for all intents and purposes, ours.

[Enitharmon]

Fair point, hoever Pullman himself has stated that Wills world is supposed to be ours

The whole business of authorial intention is problematic to say the least. Read Roland Barthes on The Death of the Author.

What your doing is nit-picking.

It's called literary criticism...

If I really wanted to nit-pick, I'd point out that you should have written 'you're' and not 'your' in that sentence.

ITs a fictional story, so every world is going to be 'fictional' however Wills world is, for all intents and purposes, ours.

I'd go so far as to say that Will's world is it exists in your mind is not the same as Will's world as it exists in my mind. As a writer myself, I'm also responsible for populating a world not dissimilar from Will's (but coloured by my own personal prejudices). In the world of DI Verity Blanchard, I can assure you there is no Mary Malone at the Clarendon Laboratory (she's checked!)

Oh naive one, who has not yet learned of the hazards of challenging the Enitharmon!

*vigorously slaps AUST*

[AUST]

The whole business of authorial intention is problematic to say the least. Read Roland Barthes on The Death of the Author.

Indeed, the fact that is in writing at the beginining of the books gives a fairly strong idea of his intention though...

It's called literary criticism...

If I really wanted to nit-pick, I'd point out that you should have written 'you're' and not 'your' in that sentence.

I'd say theres a major diffrence between the two...

I'd go so far as to say that Will's world is it exists in your mind is not the same as Will's world as it exists in my mind. As a writer myself, I'm also responsible for populating a world not dissimilar from Will's (but coloured by my own personal prejudices). In the world of DI Verity Blanchard, I can assure you there is no Mary Malone at the Clarendon Laboratory (she's checked!)

I'd agree, but the point of course here is what Pullmans intentions where and they appear to be very clear that Wills world was intended to be his version of our world (From his POV). Of course you're correct, every writer does this (I do it myself) but Pullmans intention was to portray our world as he sees it.

Oh naive one, who has not yet learned of the hazards of challenging the Enitharmon!

*vigorously slaps AUST*

*Cowers*

[portent]

I'd go so far as to say that Will's world is not a fictional construct. Will is a fictional construct--a fictional character just like his mother and Mary Malone. Sir Charle's study is a fictional construct...but the world they're in is not. Pullman didn't invent it, it's not his.

This is extremely important, because it means that we can know things about Will's world that aren't explicit in the text. We can know, for example, that when Mary Malone was a nun, she was part of a Catholic church, headed by Pope John Paul II in Rome, even though this is never explicit. Contrast this with Lyra's world, where we know only what is revealed in the books. It greatly changes our understanding of the story.

[shruikan_shade]

A very interesting point brought up there by portent: We know a great deal about our (Will's) world. Yet comparatively little about Lyra's. The fact that the majority of the trilogy takes part in Lyra's world or other random worlds, and rather little in Will's own world, allows us to apply our own imagination to make most of the book unique to us. What we do know about Lyra's world supplies the basis for a whole structure mostly comprised of our imagination, this allows us to further and better imagine the characters in it and the same applies to the other worlds which we have not personally experienced. When it comes to our and Will's world, we know what its like, especially if we live in London or a similar city. Therefore the parts of the book occurring in our world leave little about the world to the imagination, and focus more on the characters themselves, particularly from other worlds (eg Lyra when she first arrives in our world, gets hit by a car) This contrast is to show in more clarity the true concept of an alien universe. We see it when the cahracters travel to a world they do not know of, but we are also focused on their story and the world itself at those times. At the times where the story is unfolding in our world, we are able to see the 'foreigners' (for lack of a better term for those from other universes) reactions to a new universe without the world they are in absorbing too much of our interest, as we know it fairly well already.

That was a bit of an essay, and may not make much sense as im a bit tired and probably not very clear in my typing, but if you look closely i think ive brought a point across.

[Ursae Majoris]

What's so special about Cittagazze that causes it to be the crossroads between worlds anyway? I don't see how being the world that develops the Knife and made the first window is any basis for it to be the crossroads. What I think I'm hinting at is that there must be something special about Cittagazze to cause it to become the crossroads. Could it have been the first world perhaps?

[Mockingbird]

I don't see how being the world that develops the Knife and made the first window is any basis for it to be the crossroads.

That's exactly why it is a crossroad. Presumably, nearly all the Knife-bearers came from that world so nearly all of the windows would open from Cittagazze to other worlds back to Cittagazze eventually. How else would they create their magpie culture? I think it's interesting that Will can pinpoint cutting through worlds down to an exact city. How would he recognize Tokyo of his world?

We can know, for example, that when Mary Malone was a nun, she was part of a Catholic church, headed by Pope John Paul II in Rome, even though this is never explicit.

We can't know that. In our world, the Catholic Church was headed by Pope John Paul II. I agree with you that the author intended for Will's world to be ours but as I found, to my annoyance, what the writer intends isn't always what the reader experiences. Once you write something and put it out there it takes a life of its own which is unique to each reader.

[Riali]

We can't know that. In our world, the Catholic Church was headed by Pope John Paul II. I agree with you that the author intended for Will's world to be ours but as I found, to my annoyance, what the writer intends isn't always what the reader experiences. Once you write something and put it out there it takes a life of its own which is unique to eachreader.

I think that the whole is-it-our-world-or-not argument comes down to this uniqueness. Yes, Will's world is a portrayal by Pullman of our world, but it is a fictional construct, and not only is the fictional world interpreted by each reader personally and differently, but the real world is as well. None of our worlds are identical to each other, they are all coloured by our individuality.
It touches again on my whole perceptual world rant on another thread.
We all create for ourselves the world that we choose to live in, and many of our worlds are radically different from each other.
i would even go so far as to say that the term "our world" is wildly inaccurate, as even though we may share physical space, all of our experiences are personal and un-sharable (no, thats not a real world, but I needed it anyway).

So no, Will's World is not the same as your world or mine, but it is based on PP's perception of the space we live in. So we may, as portent pointed out, have many points of referece in common with Will's world, but ultimately, there are many of variables that are going to vary for all they're worth between one individual's idea of it and another's.

[SoulLily]

It amazes me the kind of heated discussions that spawn off seemingy tame topics here. Although I do welcome the discussion; that's what I posted this for.

Cittagazze isn't a world, it's a city in a world which doesn't, as far as we know, have a name.

Perhaps I'm confused then, as I've seen the place(s) referred to as both Cittagazze and Ci'gazze. Maybe Ci'gazze is just a short form, but I always imagined that one of them is the name of the world as a whole and the other the name of the city.

i would even go so far as to say that the term "our world" is wildly inaccurate, as even though we may share physical space, all of our experiences are personal and un-sharable.

I believe the term 'world' is usually defined as the physical world in which we all live: as you said, the space around us. Earth and all that's on it, the sun, the moon, the stars... All that matter making up what we see and feel and live in and breathe and even eat every day. Perhaps I'm being closed-minded, but I don't believe the term 'world' can really be defined as experiences. That's a whole other kettle of fish to me.

[Enitharmon]

Perhaps I'm confused then, as I've seen the place(s) referred to as both Cittagazze and Ci'gazze. Maybe Ci'gazze is just a short form, but I always imagined that one of them is the name of the world as a whole and the other the name of the city.

Cittagazze means 'city of magpies' in Italian. Ci'gazze, as you say, is just a contracted form. Italian is very prone to shortening.

[Ursae Majoris]

I don't see how being the world that develops the Knife and made the first window is any basis for it to be the crossroads.

That's exactly why it is a crossroad. Presumably, nearly all the Knife-bearers came from that world so nearly all of the windows would open from Cittagazze to other worlds back to Cittagazze eventually. How else would they create their magpie culture? I think it's interesting that Will can pinpoint cutting through worlds down to an exact city. How would he recognize Tokyo of his world?

I could have sworn that someone said that that at one time you could only cut out of a world and into Citagazze and that to travel between worlds you had to travel via Cittagazze. Anyone remember this or am I nutty as peanut butter?

Also, Will couldn't pinpoint down to the city, let us remember that Cittagazze/Ci'gazze is the name of the city, the world wasn't given a name. He can only open windows into other worlds, there's no telling what's on the other side.