The Republic of Heaven

LO: du-du-du, Constantinople

Discuss the companion books of the HDM trilogy: Lyra's Oxford and Once Upon a Time in the North.

LO: du-du-du, Constantinople

Postby Will » Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:52 am

..still exists in Lyra's world, according to the map list. Bit of a surprise since other places - such as Gibraltar - have their Arabic names. Why didn't the Arabs take Constantinople, but succeeded elsewhere?

Also, having Istanbul as European City of Culture in 201x (I forget) is really going to smart.
Q: If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God tell you when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?
Pullman: Well, I'm retiring, would you like to take it on ?
Will
Homo Sine Deo
 
Posts: 7463
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:29 pm
Location: Eastern Anglia

Postby Somewhat » Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:13 am

It might've been even more heavily defended than it was when the Arabs took it in our world. Considering the Church is more powerful and richer there, it wouldn't come as much of a surprise.
Image
Sraffie Awards 2008: Sexiest Male Sraffie // Formerly known as moonflash. Avatar courtesy of the lovely Bee.

"Can I make you a sandwich?"
"Okay - but no mayo. And no raisins, or celery. And no peas. No love, no joy, no future. No mushrooms."

- Buttercup Festival
User avatar
Somewhat
Raustralian
 
Posts: 4152
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 9:55 am
Location: The Last Continent

Postby silversong » Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:05 pm

Wow, you really like to discuss the teeny details, don't you? :P Ah well, that's what the forum's for.

I guess anything-really anything, could have left the place with that name...just too hard to speculate.
"Blame is for God and small children." Papillon
User avatar
silversong
Armoured Bear
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:41 pm

Postby jessia » Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:35 pm

teeny details give us things to talk about when we're waiting for things to happen.

btw will, the turks took constantinople, not the arabs. :P

the name istanbul (etymology) just means "the city" apparently, so perhaps it wasn't a big deal for the L-world turks to give it a turkish name. perhaps the ottomans had adopted another ideology that made other issues more important than renaming cities?

in contrast, we know izmir exists in lyra's world (mentionned for its college ambassador's attempted assassination of lord asriel in TGC) under its turkish name. however, "izmir" is just a turkish version of the greek "smyrna" used to describe the same site during the roman empire.
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy


sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php

Image Image
User avatar
jessia
Sraffie Queen
 
Posts: 10999
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am
Website: http://cuaroninspired.wordpress.com/
Location: the colonies

Postby Kyrillion » Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:18 am

'Cos Istanbul and Constantinople are the same!'

Sorry, am I the only one who thinks of the Muppets any time they hear either name mentioned?
Stay out of Camberwick Green.
Kyrillion
Megamouth Sraffie (get custom title)
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Hove actually

Postby jessia » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:15 am

my mom used to sing the song and for the LONGEST time i thought that the west had only recently accepted the turkish name for the city and that people needed the song to remind themselves that it was no longer constantinople.

i feel misled.
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy


sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php

Image Image
User avatar
jessia
Sraffie Queen
 
Posts: 10999
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am
Website: http://cuaroninspired.wordpress.com/
Location: the colonies

Postby Will » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:36 pm

My thread-title was an attempt at the song. :P

I always forget the Turks aren't Arabs, though I do remember it with Iranians.
Will
Homo Sine Deo
 
Posts: 7463
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:29 pm
Location: Eastern Anglia

Postby jessia » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:49 pm

My thread-title was an attempt at the song. :P
i know. :P
I always forget the Turks aren't Arabs, though I do remember it with Iranians.
don't let an arab hear that. :P
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy


sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php

Image Image
User avatar
jessia
Sraffie Queen
 
Posts: 10999
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am
Website: http://cuaroninspired.wordpress.com/
Location: the colonies

Postby Kyrillion » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:03 pm

'Never be rude to an Arab...'

Sigh, a comedy song for every occasion, me.
Stay out of Camberwick Green.
Kyrillion
Megamouth Sraffie (get custom title)
 
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:47 pm
Location: Hove actually

Postby AUST » Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:56 pm

Perhaps the Byzantine Empire wasn't so weak at this point and had retained the conquests of Justain-and force the turks to advance southwards towards Egypt? Its perfectly possible, even a poorly defended Constantinople was very hard to take and the Turks took several years despite the genius of Urban (a gun crafter), the largest gun ever made and Sultinman (SP) the Magnificant tactical genius.

There are many, many scenarios wehre it didn't fall. Indeed we estimate that had the Pope responded to the Emporers request for support then it wouldn't have falled, or had another 3 or 4 thousand men been defending it it could of survived.
My Spelling is wobberly. I get all the right letters but they wobble and end up in the wrong order
AUST
Witch
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Kettlewell, Gods own county

Postby Aletheia Dolorosa » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:02 am

the name istanbul (etymology) just means "the city" apparently
I always thought it was the Turkish version of Constantinople. Thank you for correcting my ignorance.
Image
'There are few things in this world that couldn't be improved by adding vampires to them.' - Scott Westerfeld
ImageImage
ImageImage
More melodrama/Even more melodrama/Sexiest Female Sraffie, Best Signature, Cam Whore, 2008 Sraffie Awards
Avatar from Scandinavia and the World
User avatar
Aletheia Dolorosa
Wednesday's Child
 
Posts: 4522
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:22 am
Website: http://dolorosa12.wordpress.com/
Location: At the top of the Inviolate Tower

Postby Grumman » Tue May 01, 2007 3:08 am

From my viewpoint the fall of Constantinople was one of the major catastrophes in the history of civilization
User avatar
Grumman
Armoured Bear
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:27 pm
Location: West of the Sun and East of the Moon

Postby jessia » Tue May 01, 2007 3:10 am

please expand?
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy


sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php

Image Image
User avatar
jessia
Sraffie Queen
 
Posts: 10999
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am
Website: http://cuaroninspired.wordpress.com/
Location: the colonies

Postby Aletheia Dolorosa » Tue May 01, 2007 3:46 am

The fall of Constantinople indirectly brought about the Renaissance, and wasn't that a good thing?

(sorry to be trite)
Image
'There are few things in this world that couldn't be improved by adding vampires to them.' - Scott Westerfeld
ImageImage
ImageImage
More melodrama/Even more melodrama/Sexiest Female Sraffie, Best Signature, Cam Whore, 2008 Sraffie Awards
Avatar from Scandinavia and the World
User avatar
Aletheia Dolorosa
Wednesday's Child
 
Posts: 4522
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:22 am
Website: http://dolorosa12.wordpress.com/
Location: At the top of the Inviolate Tower

Postby jessia » Tue May 01, 2007 4:31 am

lots of cultural developments across the ottoman empire as well...
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy


sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php

Image Image
User avatar
jessia
Sraffie Queen
 
Posts: 10999
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:07 am
Website: http://cuaroninspired.wordpress.com/
Location: the colonies

Postby Aletheia Dolorosa » Tue May 01, 2007 10:20 am

Indeed, so to describe it as 'one of the major catastrophes in the history of civilisation' is a little...black and white, isn't it?
Image
'There are few things in this world that couldn't be improved by adding vampires to them.' - Scott Westerfeld
ImageImage
ImageImage
More melodrama/Even more melodrama/Sexiest Female Sraffie, Best Signature, Cam Whore, 2008 Sraffie Awards
Avatar from Scandinavia and the World
User avatar
Aletheia Dolorosa
Wednesday's Child
 
Posts: 4522
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:22 am
Website: http://dolorosa12.wordpress.com/
Location: At the top of the Inviolate Tower

Postby AUST » Tue May 01, 2007 11:17 pm

Indeed, unless your Islamaphobic.

The Byzantine Empire was crumbling, it had been sacked and pillage adn to be honest most of its great cultural and technological advances wehre over by the reign of Basil IV and the reconquests. It was doomed and it had only hung on because of its sheer size and the Christian (and Muslin) reverence for 1500 years of tradition-even the pope reconised it as the true heir of Rome.

Its fall was probably a good thing in terms of civilstion and cultural advancement-the Ottomans where a great people and did a huge amount of very worthwhile stuff, and it brought about the Renaissance.
My Spelling is wobberly. I get all the right letters but they wobble and end up in the wrong order
AUST
Witch
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Kettlewell, Gods own county

Postby Thing_of_Things » Wed May 02, 2007 2:33 am

They went on to oppress many nations across the Mediterranean and carry out the Armenian Genocide...

EDIT: I'm not saying the Byzantines (especially at the time) were all that fantastic, nor am I denying that the Ottomans made great strides in secular government, I'm just saying...

EDIT 2: ...I guess I'm just saying it's a complex issue.

EDIT 3: Will the edits never end? Perhaps in L-World the Venetians never managed to convince the Franks to go on their fun little detour during the Fourth Crusade...
Thing_of_Things
Grazer
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:38 am

Postby AUST » Wed May 02, 2007 6:55 pm

They went on to oppress many nations across the Mediterranean and carry out the Armenian Genocide...

EDIT: I'm not saying the Byzantines (especially at the time) were all that fantastic, nor am I denying that the Ottomans made great strides in secular government, I'm just saying...

EDIT 2: ...I guess I'm just saying it's a complex issue.

EDIT 3: Will the edits never end? Perhaps in L-World the Venetians never managed to convince the Franks to go on their fun little detour during the Fourth Crusade...
Ah yes, the fall of the Ottomans.

Thing is the Byzantines did many things like this, adn they certainly opressed there people-thing improved for a vast majority of people in the Ottoman Empires early years, admittedly as its power waned it became repressive and weak, as the Byzantine Empire did as it waned.
My Spelling is wobberly. I get all the right letters but they wobble and end up in the wrong order
AUST
Witch
 
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:59 am
Location: Kettlewell, Gods own county


Return to “%s” Companion Books

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests

Content © 2001-2011 BridgeToTheStars.Net.
Images from The Golden Compass movie are © New Line Cinema.
cron