Mrs Coulter has Witch abilities?

[aklebury]

Hey,

I noticed a couple of interesting passages in Northern Lights that suggests Mrs Coulter's daemon has the ability to seperate from her more than a normal person.
Lyra and Pan for example can go only several yards (?) from each other (at least before Lyra goes to the world of the dead), but the book seems to suggest that Mrs Coulter can seperate much further from her daemon, possibly in the same way a witch can?

The passages in the book:

'The Cocktail Party' - (just after Mrs Coulter 'removes' Adele Starminster)
'As she said that, Lyra noticed that Mrs Coulter was alone, without her daemon. How could that be? But a moment later the golden monkey appeared at her side, and, reaching down, she took his hand and swung him up lightly to her shoulder.'

'Armour' - (at the end of the chapter)
'Pantalaimon struggled against [Lyra's] sleepiness, but it was too strong; he curled up as a mouse inside her hood. He could tell her when they woke, and it was probably a marten, or a dream, or some kind of harmless local spirit; but something was following the train of sledges, swinging lightly from branch to branch of the close-clustering pine trees, and it put him uneasily in mind of a monkey.'


I realise that both these instances can be explained away - (ie. he wasn't that far away from Mrs Coulter inside their house, and Pan was just dreaming etc.) but does anyone else think that Pullman is subtly suggesting they can seperate?
Also can anyone think of any other instances from the second or third books that also back this up?

[Jez]

I don't know. Those passages always puzzled me because they seemed to hint at something - some kind of subtle foreshadowing... and then nothing happened.

The only other thing I can think of is how Mrs Coulter could see through the witch's invisibility spell. I think she learned how to do that somehow, because she didn't see through the trick the first time when Serafina was snooping on the ship.

[Soapy]

That second one puzzled me too. When i was reading it to my mum. I was like "wtf?"

but I think it was just Pan/Lyra being paranoid and having Mrs Coulter on their mind.

I also thought that the bit at the Cocktail party was just because Lyra's room was near enough for the monkey to go into without being too far from Mrs C

[Peter]

I think PP left stubs that he didn't develop further.

What about His Dark Materials? I consider it to be a long novel of the traditional variety. Lyra Belacqua is indeed the protagonist and there is no doubt that the main thrust of the story, for all its subplots, is to tell the reader about her adventures and her growing into maturity. Other characters appear and disappear (and are significant) but the story begins and end with her. But… it’s a bit loose in places. I think it’s not so much that Philip Pullman made it up as he went along, more that he knew where his destination – the Botanic Garden – was, but he wasn’t altogether sure when he started work on Northern Lights / The Golden Compass how he was going to get there.

A similar case is Charles Dickens, who famously wrote his novels a month at a time (along with all the other things this extraordinarily energetic man got up to). Careful analysis of the texts of his novels, even his later, more carefully thought-out ones, reveals the existence of many plot- and character-stubs. In other words, he was struck by a good idea in the course of writing and put it into the story just in case it might turn out to be useful further on. One example is the early mention of Betsy Trotwood’s no-good husband in David Copperfield. Where a stub leads to a later revelation of plot or character the writer hopes that critical readers will applaud his craft and call it “foreshadowing”. Where it doesn’t, the writer prays that nobody will notice. I think Philip Pullman wrote His Dark Materials in much the same way, although he had the advantage over Dickens that his long novel was published in only three revisable chunks rather than 24 or more.

[silversong]

For a while I thought Mrs. Coulter was a robot. It was the too-smooth cheek and the metallic scent Lyra noticed when she was angry. That explained for me how the golden monkey could be so far away from her...but I think Peter has the best hypothesis.

[Sketch]

Also in the section of TAS where it says that the monkey hopped from rock to rock to pick up the injured Lord Roke, while Mrs. Coulter stayed where she was.

[the blatant fork]

there's definately something not quite right bout her- but if she is a witch surely the obvious question is why isn't she up in the sky with her clan? although it explains a lot- such as how she has that power over people that can't quite be defined. you've won me over!

[Diolmhain]

'The Cocktail Party' - (just after Mrs Coulter 'removes' Adele Starminster)
'As she said that, Lyra noticed that Mrs Coulter was alone, without her dæmon. How could that be? But a moment later the golden monkey appeared at her side, and, reaching down, she took his hand and swung him up lightly to her shoulder.'

Is it not possible that the monkey had simply been a few feet away in the next room? Lyra and pan can be i think 14 feet at most away from eacdhother..

[Mockingbird]

That's an interesting theory, aklebury, and one I've never considered. But if you remember, anyone can seperate from their daemon if their will is strong enough, its just not done because its sickeningly painful. Coulter and the monkey seem fond of sickening pain, so I assume they've discovered to some extent that you can pull against the bond without it breaking, and thats how they did it at the cocktail party. The shadow in the trees was just a shadow and Pan's jumpy nerves, me thinks.

However, there was that bit when Coulter was murdering Sir Charles and she saw the invisible witch in the background. Coulter has probably developed some extra-sensory abilities because she is so curious about how all things work and how she can manipulate them to her benefit.

[silversong]

However, there was that bit when Coulter was murdering Sir Charles and she saw the invisible witch in the background. Coulter has probably developed some extra-sensory abilities because she is so curious about how all things work and how she can manipulate them to her benefit.

I always thought the witch was visible-her daemon was being consumed by a spectre, so she might not have noticed she was no longer invisible.

[aklebury]

But if you remember, anyone can seperate from their dæmon if their will is strong enough, its just not done because its sickeningly painful. Coulter and the monkey seem fond of sickening pain, so I assume they've discovered to some extent that you can pull against the bond without it breaking, and thats how they did it at the cocktail party.

Hee
Yeah, they were rather sadistic.

Who knows, maybe Philip Pullman will explain this a little bit more in the Book of Dust...
That is assuming Mrs Coulter will make an appearance in it?

[Evermind]

I think Mrs. Coulter is also a masochist, not just a sadist.

[The Funny Man]

Well, if you think about it, it says in TAS that the pain of seperation is partly emotional, meaning the love strengthens the bond. Mrs. Coulter seemed to have no love for anything in the beginning, except power. Maybe this enabled the monkey to move farther away, because the bond wasn't as strong.

And apartments aren't too big, the monkey could wander around- no problem.

[Kyrillion]

For a while I thought Mrs. Coulter was a robot. It was the too-smooth cheek and the metallic scent Lyra noticed when she was angry. That explained for me how the golden monkey could be so far away from her...

In a sense, she is. I think PP is aware he's setting up a very strong - I dunno, it's somehwere between a semantic field and an extended metaphor (which, read the bear fight, he's terribly fond of). I think he's even aware that he might be misleading some readers into thinking MC's ACTUALLY mechanical (if I remember rightly - this was ten years ago - I thought that when I first read it). But it's like Peter says - it's foreshadowing and doesn't have to have a proper explanation. PP shows again and again he serves poetic labguage or dramatic impact over fact. My favourite example is when he can't resist ending the Tony Makarios scene with 'they will never leave the building again', but then has to add the caveat 'at least not by that door' since the former is totally untrue. So we shouldn't make the mistake of taking what PP says as law.

Similarly, I woudn't read too much into the golden monkey's apparent freedom. Despite some fans desperation to tie daemons down, the rules PP sets out for them emerge organically grom the story and are impressionistic rather than set in stone. It FEELS right that MC, who has a mysterious and sinister powr to her, should be able to seperate from her daemon more than usual. It gives the reader an uneasy sense because we know something about daemons by now (while also neatly setting up the idea that usually daemon and human cant go very far apart, which will be significant later). If you ant to explain it logically, it makes sence that maybe MC has studied some witchcraft since we know she's travelled widely and especially to the North, and as a woman on the make, she'll recognise witches as one of the few empowered groups of women in her world. I doubt she has full witch separation. But she has the strength to face the strain of tgm being far away to further her own ends.

[Stargirl]

I think she does have some other powers, not necessarily witch, but she has non-normal powers. Like also the fact that she can command the spectres? yeah that's real normal. And that stench that Lyra notices at the coctail party, the metallic smell. Strange.....

[Crimen-Scene]

Maybe she has practiced witchcraft. I could have sworn it said that somewhere within the books or if it doesn't it implies she's studied something. But maybe she has been cut from her daemon? Actually, now I've mentioned it that wouldn't explain how they still felt each other's emotions. Oh I dunno, but I think the witchcraft thing explains something. Even if she isn't one, she's the kind of person who would study it even if it is forbidden.

[missmolly]

Remember in TAS when Serafina's talking to the two daemons? She explains that they now have the power to seperate, like witches, but that they won't actually be witches. She goes on to tell them about a place in the far, far north of Lyra's world where a great catastrophe happened (I think she says something like "at the very beginning of the world") and that, in order for a young girl to become a witch, she must cross it without her daemon. Earlier on in the series (probably in NL/TGC) she talks with Lyra about the children of witches - she goes into detail about how having male children is difficult because they will be mortal, but that if the children are female they'll be witches. I assume that all girls born to witches would automatically be witches by birth and would then have to cross that bit of land or whatever to gain the power to seperate.

Anyway, I don't think Mrs. Coulter is a witch because I'm pretty sure (though of course we don't actually know) she would have to have been born into it. Granted we're not sure of her parentage, but I think the gyptians mention something about it, but that might have just been that she wasn't as well-born as Lord Asriel. Anyway, if she was actually a witch, wouldn't her daemon have been a bird? Again, we don't really know, but still.

So my theory was just that, somewhere in her travels (which, by all acounts were extensive) she and the monkey had visited this place and they'd crossed it, gaining the power to seperate.

For awhile I was pretty sure they were just stronger than most other people and could seperate at will, or that they were just sadistic fiends and liked it, but then I remembered the part in TGC/NL when Lyra's sneaking about in the ceilings at Bolvangar and she overhears Mrs C talking with the doctors. They're discussing the silver guillotine and they mention how, in the beginning, they could only seperate by "pulling" which was very stressful for anyone involved, which was why they had to let so many people go. At least, I *think* thats when it was mentioned. So I got the idea that pulling ones daemon too far would result in the bad kind of seperation as opposed to the witchy kind of seperation.

That was really long, but I hope it made sense!

Oh, and that metallic smell thing always boggled my mind

[aklebury]

ooh it does make sense!

I hadn't even considered the "wasteland" as a possibility, but now that you've mentioned it it seems like the most likely and plausible explanation.

It still doesn't explain the spectres, but....

I hope that there's a story with Mrs Coulter in it in the Book of Dust...
I don't know what i'm more excited about - the new book or the movie!

[heatheradair]

I think it suggests that she has the ability to detach herself emotionally. She is marvelously manipulative, but in order to be that skilled at influencing and bending others to her will while still retaining her humanity, she would need to (at least temporarily) divorce herself from the deeper aspects of her own personality.

Someone mentioned in another thread that she was a sociopath - but it really doesn't seem that way to me in the end. She appears to love Asriel, and he her; they just couldn't respect others without feeling as though they themselves weren't invulnerable to them. That unsettling yet thrilling feeling of insecurity would loosen the self-imposed bindings on their own souls enough to let the emotion flow freely between them. That's how it appeared to me, anyhow.

[Huginn]

I think what we have here is another expression of varying degrees of detachment, indeed.

We have someone who's forcibly detached, like Tony Makarios, who's unable to cope with the stress of it.

We have people who voluntarily and completely detach themselves, but have to undergo some kind of process to do so, like the servants at Bolvangar, who seem as mere shadows of themselves.

We also have people exist in some in between area: people who have no distance limit but yet still enjoy a link with their daemons. The witches, Mrs. Coulter, and, by the end of the books, Lyra and Will.

It's also possible that you can be fully detached and yet still seem "complete," although that might be more of a speculative curiosity than anything we could seriously look at.