The Republic of Heaven

zemarl wrote:are we to assume the story of lucifer was completely separate from metatron, or were they one and the same? (think that it would be possible)

Metatron has nothing whatsoever to do with Lucifer. He is a figure in The Bible, nto a character of Pullman's - he used to be a man, Enoch, as is mentioned in HDM.

what did they use it for?

They used it to steal from other worlds - hence, in my opinion, 'City of the Magpies'.

they did call it æsahættr (spelling unsure), but was that because they intended the knife to destroy the authority, or because they knew it was capable once they saw what else it could do?

I don't think the scholars ever called it that, or ever realised its potential to kill God.

Max wrote:

zemarl wrote:are we to assume the story of lucifer was completely separate from metatron, or were they one and the same? (think that it would be possible)

Metatron has nothing whatsoever to do with Lucifer. He is a figure in The Bible, nto a character of Pullman's - he used to be a man, Enoch, as is mentioned in HDM.

i was fully aware of that before i asked, having studied the bible more than many professed christians and most non-christians. the stories sometimes can intertwine and where one story means one thing, it can mean more than one and be (badly) connected with a different part of the bible. lucifer was an angel at one point too. i'm starting to believe it's less of a possibility that metatron IS lucifer, but i'm curious as to whether lucifer comes before or after metatron.

what did they use it for?

They used it to steal from other worlds - hence, in my opinion, 'City of the Magpies'.

yes, obviously. but i meant chiefly, as in it's main purpose before the children came along. the knife isn't a recent invention. and were they stealing to survive, because of the specters, or were they stealing like spies steal, maybe information or highly valuable things they could have used to better their knowledge?

they did call it æsahættr (spelling unsure), but was that because they intended the knife to destroy the authority, or because they knew it was capable once they saw what else it could do?

I don't think the scholars ever called it that, or ever realised its potential to kill God.

the scholars didn't call it æsahættr? someone did, and i know it didn't necessarily SAY the scholars mentioned its name but why wouldn't they call it that? surely they'd be the most likely to know what it does, having created/studied it...

I don't think Metatron is supposed to have parallels with Lucifer; I think whatever angel first rebelled is.

zemarl wrote:

Max wrote:

zemarl wrote:are we to assume the story of lucifer was completely separate from metatron, or were they one and the same? (think that it would be possible)

Metatron has nothing whatsoever to do with Lucifer. He is a figure in The Bible, nto a character of Pullman's - he used to be a man, Enoch, as is mentioned in HDM.

i was fully aware of that before i asked, having studied the bible more than many professed christians and most non-christians. the stories sometimes can intertwine and where one story means one thing, it can mean more than one and be (badly) connected with a different part of the bible. lucifer was an angel at one point too. i'm starting to believe it's less of a possibility that metatron IS lucifer, but i'm curious as to whether lucifer comes before or after metatron.

Lucifer in HDM was Xaphania. I can't off-hand remember whether Metatron was involved in the fight against the rebel angels, but it is certainly said that his Regentship is a quite recent thing, so perhaps not. Ah, and since Metatron came from a human, he must have become an angel after the rebellion.

Will wrote:Ah, and since Metatron came from a human, he must have become an angel after the rebellion.

Yup - and Luicfer being Metatron makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, anyway.

zemarl wrote:lucifer was an angel at one point too

Luicfer (according to The Bible) was and still is an archangel.

yes, obviously. but i meant chiefly, as in it's main purpose before the children came along. the knife isn't a recent invention. and were they stealing to survive, because of the specters, or were they stealing like spies steal, maybe information or highly valuable things they could have used to better their knowledge?

They used it to steal from the word go, although they probably just went out to explore and decided to 'borrow' the weird and wonderful things they came across. It wouldn't have had anything to do with spectres, because there weren't any before the knife.

the scholars didn't call it æsahættr? someone did, and i know it didn't necessarily SAY the scholars mentioned its name but why wouldn't they call it that? surely they'd be the most likely to know what it does, having created/studied it...

The cliff-ghasts referred to it as Æsahættr. The scholars wouldn't have realised for the same reason we, if we believe in God, don't postulate that we could nuke the Kingdom of Heaven and thereby kill Him - we wouldn't assume that what applies to the material world also applies to the celestial realm.

Max wrote: we wouldn't assume that what applies to the material world also applies to the celestial realm.

i would consider it, at the very least. assume is a strong word.

jst reading the comments above about metatron and the authority. This probably goes against PP idea of discrediting God, but i rekon the authority actualy is not God,but is infact the first angel who took charge. The actual God is there, but not in another parallel universe, but an entire new dimension from which dust was created. Jst an idea like,prob a rubish one but hey.

ryan_o87 wrote:jst reading the comments above about metatron and the authority. This probably goes against PP idea of discrediting God, but i rekon the authority actualy is not God,but is infact the first angel who took charge. The actual God is there, but not in another parallel universe, but an entire new dimension from which dust was created. Jst an idea like,prob a rubish one but hey.

Even though I am in no position (according to all these unwritten laws of internet communities) to say nice first post, I will. Nice first post I sort of do agree with you. I am in no way Christian, but in order to accept an all-powerfull God, there can be absolutely no possibility of anyone beating him. If you've read Paradise Lost that is even said in the first book. Even though that might be considered flattery by the Angels towards Lucifer, it does give your theory just a bit of solid ground.

I'd like to read it cos i can't get enough of the subject! The dust and Lyra and all are so interesting....

I read in a transcript from an interview on "Belief" on the BBC
http://darkadamant.betterversion.org/BB ... ullman.txt
that "I was writing this novel, - I was simultaneously writing something else. I was simultaneously writing, a sort of creation myth that would lie
behind it all, which is no way explicit in the book except in those
words of Balthamos."
and

We all go through life in your book, with a daemon perched on our
shoulder, or indeed travelling round our body, but are present with us,
which is a sort of soul.

PP

It's an aspect of our personality, which in Lyra's world, has become
visible. Now, in my myth that I was writing, the daemon is conceived of
as being the gift of the rebel angels. Now, in the course of the myth,
the rebel angels are on the side of right and decency and goodness and
consciousness, and all these things.

IV

Lyra's side.

PP

Lyra's side. And they're lead by a figure called the Sophia - wisdom -
who's a figure which I've sort of borrowed from Gnostic myth.- the
rebels angels led by Sophia gave to the beings in each world who were
evolving, a gift that would help them understand themselves and become
wise. In some worlds, they gave them a daemon. In other words, they gave
them a song that could pull down wisdom from the stars. In a world which
we visit in the course of The Amber Spy-glass, they gave them the gift
of riding on wheels so that they could… and this… Well, you have to read
the story-

IV

Oh that's very funny … everyone going round on tricycles.

PP

But in each case you see, what it does, this gift is to help one achieve
wisdom. Wisdom, which is the sort of natural status of life and
consciousness, towards which we move almost gravitationally, and this is
where it's helping us towards that.

So basically, I think BOD will, and I hope it will, get into some of the "origin myths" of this world that Pullman has created, sort of a Silmarillion of HDM. I've heard a lot of stuff about Lyra and Will's stories continuing, but I think Pullman may be angling more for a deep history of the world, hence the title, the Book of Dust. The story will be about Dust, perhaps.

thanks for posting that

it sounds like it's going to be awesome

I'm hoping for stories about Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel, as well as Serafina Pekkala and Farder Coram. I'm mainly interested in the love story segments. ^-^