The Republic of Heaven

With the Iowa caucus taking place today, the 2008 presidential race has officially begun.

Here are the results from tonight:

Democrats: Obama 38% | John Edwards 30% | Hillary Clinton 29%
Republicans: Huckabee 34% | Romney 25% | Thompson 13%

What are your views? Who do you support?

What are your views?

My view is that the entire election system is broken. Iowa and NH going first and getting all that hype and attention is ridiculous.

How about a national caucus day in July, then vote in November?

Nah, that's too logical and sensible to ever happen.

What are your views?

My view is that the entire election system is broken. Iowa and NH going first and getting all that hype and attention is ridiculous.

How about a national caucus day in July, then vote in November?

Nah, that's too logical and sensible to ever happen.

That would make sense. The whole Iowa caucus (especially for the Democrats) is just bizarre. I don't know if I'd like having my vote known publicly...

Having said that, the Iowa caucus isn't all that important. It might give Huckabee and Obama a little extra boost of momentum, but historically it's pretty insignificant.

But you're right; the fairest situation would be a nationwide primary date.

I'm surprised Edwards is so high up, and even more surprised that he beat Clinton. Glad...but still surprised.

I'm surprised Edwards is so high up, and even more surprised that he beat Clinton. Glad...but still surprised.

Same. After the response Edwards got in 2004 I'd assumed he had no chance, but I gather he has a resonance with the white middle classes...

Please dear god do not let Huckabee win. Please.

And Leif, I saw that Ron Paul did ok in Iowa - 10% isn't bad for someone who Fox won't talk to

I'm surprised Edwards is so high up, and even more surprised that he beat Clinton. Glad...but still surprised.

I don't believe that's confirmed yet, unless the numbers came in this morning; last night they kept saying it 'looked like' Edwards beat Clinton, it was pretty close. Why don't you like her, Gabe?

Anyway, the candidates who win the Iowa caucus don't traditionally go on to win the candidacy, as Peter implied.

This year's caucus seems to have simply been a reflection of the moods of bluest and reddest of voters more than anything concrete about the candidates, with young people coming out in full force for Obama and the evangelicals for Huckabee.

I can't imagine that Obama will win the nomination if the Democrats expect to win the presidency. And while conservative America continues to surprise me in its idiocy, I can't imagine that such a man would the nomination. He believes in creationism, among other hard-right views, how can such people still exist let alone run for office...

between the news reports i've been hearing and conversations with americans (i.e. leif), it looks like if the republicans send huckabee to run on their behalf, it'll scare a lot of the more moderate republicans into voting for the democratic party. i've been looking at wikipedia articles on the political positions of obama and clinton and i have to say i feel more comfortable with obama. but perhaps obama has the benefit of being less experienced in politics so he doesn't have a lengthy voting record to show for.

all that said, i don't vote in your country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ ... am_Clinton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ ... rack_Obama

(ongoing question in my mind about electability in the democratic party, i feel like america is more willing to send a black man to office than a woman - whereas those who wouldn't vote for an african american candidate because he is black also wouldn't vote for a woman because she is a woman, there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

but perhaps obama has the benefit of being less experienced in politics so he doesn't have a lengthy voting record to show for.

The inexperienced pigeon hole is the only trap they've been able to pin Obama in, same with Clinton being 'Republican-lite.' Neither have all that much validity, I think. In reality, I don't think he has that much less experience than Hilary Clinton, unless you count her time as the President's wife as time in office.

there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

See, I would guess the other way around. It basically depends on whether America is more racist or more sexist, I'm banking on more racist, I guess we'll see eventually.

(ongoing question in my mind about electability in the democratic party, i feel like america is more willing to send a black man to office than a woman - whereas those who wouldn't vote for an african american candidate because he is black also wouldn't vote for a woman because she is a woman, there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

Hmm... good point. Plenty of people are openly sexist here in Virginia, but aren't openly reacist because they can be sued (if in a position of power) or fired or harrassed.

EDIT: Oh man, Mockingbird beat me to the punch. I erased it.

(ongoing question in my mind about electability in the democratic party, i feel like america is more willing to send a black man to office than a woman - whereas those who wouldn't vote for an african american candidate because he is black also wouldn't vote for a woman because she is a woman, there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

Hmm... good point. Plenty of people are openly sexist here in Virginia, but aren't openly reacist because they can be sued (if in a position of power) or fired or harrassed. However, Hilary Clinton also has history (with her husband having an affair during his presidency).

that kind of has nothing to do with her though...

there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

See, I would guess the other way around. It basically depends on whether America is more racist or more sexist, I'm banking on more racist, I guess we'll see eventually.

but it's the thing about sexism and racism. i feel like most people who are racist know they're racist, at least a little bit. whereas people can go on being sexist (in even the littlest ways, promoting equality whilst being of the opinion that a woman can't lead the nation) without having a clue that they could be described that way.

... which is why i think obama's probably more of a winner. also, i like his policy-direction more than clinton's. protection for stockholders and telecommunications neutrality ftw.

At this point, I support Obama. He's the only one I feel I can trust who'll go into the White House after the Bush mess and can start to repare the damages from over the last 8 years. I remember reading that Hilary wanted to try and win female voters in Iowa by pulling the card of "There's never been a female President and this could be a first" and I think that might lead to her downfall. Do I think there could be a Female President? Yes, but I don't think she's it.

Obama : Editor of Harvard Law Review :: Clinton : Failed D.C. Bar Exam

That's all I need to know to cast my vote for Obama. I'm embarrassed to admit I supported Mr. Compassionate Conservative in 2000 even though I suspected he was an idiot. Please don't hit me -- his dad was OK

I long for the good old days of Madison and Jefferson. You know, the era when superior intelligence was a prerequisite to stand for POTUS.

Tangentially, I'm happy Huckabee may be the Republican nominee. Obama would sodomize an ignoramus like him in a debate.

(ongoing question in my mind about electability in the democratic party, i feel like america is more willing to send a black man to office than a woman - whereas those who wouldn't vote for an african american candidate because he is black also wouldn't vote for a woman because she is a woman, there are people who would vote for a black candidate but not for a female candidate, especially some in the older generations based on old-fashionedness/inhibited sexism. what say you?)

Hmm... good point. Plenty of people are openly sexist here in Virginia, but aren't openly reacist because they can be sued (if in a position of power) or fired or harrassed. However, Hilary Clinton also has history (with her husband having an affair during his presidency).

that kind of has nothing to do with her though...

I was just saying that I was suprised at her reaction, if anyone did that to me I would get rid of them in an instant.

Anyway, the candidates who win the Iowa caucus don't traditionally go on to win the candidacy, as Peter implied.

Having a panda avatar doesn't automatically make me Peter!

And Leif, I saw that Ron Paul did ok in Iowa - 10% isn't bad for someone who Fox won't talk to

No one really expected him to have any kind of show in Iowa, so 10% isn't to bad. He has decent shot of doing well in New Hampshire, but in all honesty I don't think anyone is giving him a snowball's chance in hell against Huckabee, Romney, or Giuliani.

Tangentially, I'm happy Huckabee may be the Republican nominee. Obama would sodomize an ignoramus like him in a debate.

Absolutely. The Iowan Republicans were asked whether or not they considered themselves evangelical or born-again Christians. Out of those who are (60%, eesh), 54% voted for Huckabee, whereas only 14% of non-evangelicals voted for him. So nearly all of Huckabee's votes will come from the evangelicals, and I don't think there are enough to win him the nomination. Plus, like Jess said, if he were the Republican candidate, a whole lot of conservatives would be voting Democrat.

I loathe Huckabee.

I don't believe that's confirmed yet, unless the numbers came in this morning; last night they kept saying it 'looked like' Edwards beat Clinton, it was pretty close.

Here are the final results according to CNN.

Why don't you like her, Gabe?

Well, she'd just continue the same politics as Bill Clinton which weren't that great...I mean I'm no Clinton hater, if she gets the nomination I'll vote for her. I'd just rather see Edwards or Obama get the nomination.

As far as whether it's easier for Obama or Clinton to be elected, there definitely seems to be a distinct Hilary Clinton hate...probably a combination of sexism and general Clinton hate. My gut feeling is that Obama has the charisma and air of competence to help offset his blackness, but the American people never cease to confuzzle me. The fact that this is even an issue pisses me off.

Please dear god do not let Huckabee win. Please.

Mick Hickabee has about as much chance of being President as I have. If he gets the nod he'll destroy the republican party, which is already being torn in about six different directions. As unlikely as it is, an Obama v Huckabee race would be a dream come true, Obama would walk it.

I agree that Obama outshines Huckabee in every meaningful way, but I can't help remembering what a lot of pundits said about Reagan's joke candidacy . . .

As I posted previously, I think the matchup will be good for Obama. Nevertheless we better be careful what we wish for.

Please dear god do not let Huckabee win. Please.

Mick Hickabee has about as much chance of being President as I have. If he gets the nod he'll destroy the republican party, which is already being torn in about six different directions. As unlikely as it is, an Obama v Huckabee race would be a dream come true, Obama would walk it.

Eh... Huckabee, if nominated, would have a great chance of winning. He gets all the zealously religious voters and all the voters who are racist, not to mention most of the Republican party would probably line up behind him.(Who else are they going to vote for?) I remember seeing an article about how he tries to appeal to younger voters. If that and his stupid Chuck Norris campaign do anything he'll be a solid candidate unfortunately. I rather not see him even get in a position where he can win because if he does win I can't imagine that anything good would happen.

...not to mention most of the Republican party would probably line up behind him.(Who else are they going to vote for?)

I'm not so sure about that. My parents are pretty conservative and they both told me they'd vote for Obama if it came down to Obama vs. Huckabee. Though my parents aren't religious, I'm sure there are plenty of religious Republicans who feel the same way. I think pretty much the only people who want an evangelical president are the evangelicals themselves, and the stats from my earlier post suggest the same thing.

Basically, Huckabee has a slight chance of winning the nomination, but no chance of winning the presidency.

I don't wanna sound like some whinging limey, but there's more to the US political scene than elephants and donkeys.

I see the Greens are pulling out all the stops, Nader might run again. Then there's that ol' commie Brian Moore running for Prez with the Socialist Party. The Libertarian Party are up for it again as are those god fearing Constitution Party candidates. If Ron Paul doesn't get the Republican nomniation it's rumoured he might stand on a Libertarian ticket.

If Huckabee wins, his band are gonna need a bass player, aint they?

**Goes and gets bass from spare room**