The Republic of Heaven

i think she deserved to die, she is a horrible person. She didn't care about Lyra til she was 12. She betrayed Metatron. She drugged Lyra.

Uh...she did die.

Sorry to break it to you Shank, but she and Lord Asriel tumbled into the abyss in order to destroy Metatron, because he was a bad angel who was controlling the world.

I think what he's trying to ask is whether people agree that Coulter deserved to die or not. Not whether she did.

In that case, no, I don't think anyone deserves to die, but they should. It's a way of life....or death....whatever!

If there's one thing the book taught me (other than never to underestimate bears), then it's that fun literary characters should never be wholly good or evil. Coulter did some dastardly things, yes, but it seems that a lot of her actions, particularly towards the end, had genuinely noble intentions. She can be seen as another person blinded from her awful acts by the idea of "God's will" etc.. So deserve to die? Um, well I'm not entirely sure what makes someone deserve to die, but I don't think she did it.

shankerman wrote:i think she should have died, she is a horrible person. She didn't care about Lyra til she was 12. She betrayed Metatron.

Metatron was a bitch! Surely everyone was cheering Coulter on by that point.

actually i forget that they all fell into the abyss i re read the chapter and now i know

Tomsy wrote:If there's one thing the book taught me (other than never to underestimate bears), then it's that fun literary characters should never be wholly good or evil. Coulter did some dastardly things, yes, but it seems that a lot of her actions, particularly towards the end, had genuinely noble intentions. She can be seen as another person blinded from her awful acts by the idea of "God's will" etc.. So deserve to die? Um, well I'm not entirely sure what makes someone deserve to die, but I don't think she did it.

I don't think she deserved to die, but in some ways her death made me cry more than the ending of the book. There's something very moving about tragic redemption, isn't there?

That being said, it's my belief that literature should operate on this principle: Only the truly evil need to die to be redeemed. And like you said, Mrs Coulter is not wholly evil. Self-interested, and power-hungry, yes, but also ambitious and clever and curious about the world.

So, my final verdict is that she didn't deserve to die, but her death was necessary to provide a sort of emotional impact on the reader.

Oh, and Shankerman, people don't like it when you double-post. You can use the 'edit' key to make changes to your posts.

forgive me i am new to the fourms

No, I don't think she deserves to die, but maybe things were worst if she hadn't died. Actually not worst, but definetely different. Imagine what if she and Asriel hadn't fall in the abyss. They would live with Lyra, as a family? Or what?

No. For one thing I don't reckon anyone should die, but for another thing she isn't an evil character.

One of the great things about HDM is that every character is real. There is no black and white and no 'evil' MRs Coulter did some terrable things but she redeemed herself in the classical style. She is by no means a 'bad' charater-by the end of the book. There are no sterotypical villians in it.

However her death is nesscary, both for redemtion in the classical style and for the plot. If she hadn't it would be far less poigant and romantic, and it wouldn't have followed the classical lines that it did. To fully redeem herself she had to die.

So no, she didn't deserve to die but she had too.

shankerman wrote:actually i forget that they all fell into the abyss i re read the chapter and now i know

And knowing...is half the battle!

Sorry, just had to say it.

By the way, love your sig--anything related to 300 is badass in my eyes.

thank you i got the siggy from my buddy at http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5132937 just copy the BB code and paste it in your signature box.

The fact that she died made me more emotional than when Lyra and Will split up. man I liked it better when she did deserve to die

shankerman wrote:i think she deserved to die, she is a horrible person. She didn't care about Lyra til she was 12. She drugged Lyra.

Um, she had duties, remember? And drugged Lyra to stop her running away and getting killed. So she actually did care about her. Heh, but I love analysing villians. To find their motives, and intentions, especially if they are not blck and white villans!

HopeToBeWill1 wrote:Um, she had duties, remember? And drugged Lyra to stop her running away and getting killed. So she actually did care about her.

See, I did that to my girlfriend, so she could get to stay with me, but when she escaped she said terrible things to the police about me! The mystery of women!

shankerman wrote:i think she deserved to die, she is a horrible person. She didn't care about Lyra til she was 12. She betrayed Metatron. She drugged Lyra.

She betrayed Metatron because he was malicious and incredibly powerful, and so he had to die, betraying him was just the best way to kill him.

She drugged Lyra to prevent her death at the hands of the church, so thats not as bad as it sounds, though not ideal either.

Dont get me wrong, im not a fan of her, she supported and brought about incision of children and their daemons, and for that i think she should burn, but she did do some nobler things later on in the trilogy. Nothing which makes up for the incision though.

Her death was also integral to the plot...it couldn't have worked if she'd lived, she would have taken control of Lyra's life from those at Jordan college, as she had already done once before.

krebbe wrote:

HopeToBeWill1 wrote:Um, she had duties, remember? And drugged Lyra to stop her running away and getting killed. So she actually did care about her.

See, I did that to my girlfriend, so she could get to stay with me, but when she escaped she said terrible things to the police about me! The mystery of women!

um, mystery? If you did that to me, I would tell the police too! After hitting you repeatedley with a heavy blunt object. Maybe a spoon.

Yes. Her death made me cry a little, and she truly brought it back in the ending, but in the beginning she was a horrible and twisted form of life who wanted to see children suffer; she set up a science station simply to seperate them from their daemons. It's a horrible act. I think, in a way, she did get what she deserved.