The Republic of Heaven

This scene has got me thinking recently. The way God dies... well, it's an anti-climax really. There's all this talk about a war in Heaven and fighting against the Authority... then along come Lyra and Will and they kill the Authority by accident! They don't even realise who he is.

Why do you think Pullman chose to write the scene that way?

Is it part of Lyra and Will's destiny to destroy the Authority? I wondered if perhaps it has some connection with the fact that Lyra is supposed to fulfil the prophecy in ignorance of what she is doing. Will's father also believed that it was his son's task to fight the Authority. But in the end they don't even need the knife to destroy God.

Why did Pullman make the Authority so weak? Does it in some way represent the corruption of the Church?

In my eyes part of it is representative of the way a lot of archaic religious believers cling on to old ideals and teachings that are clearly outdated. Much the same way that the Authority's Guard won't let him free from his crystal cage even though he's clearly happy when he's able to die.

I never thought of that. I like that interpretation.

I concur heartily...

mod edit: seriously, you know the rules. Post something with substance.

In my eyes part of it is representative of the way a lot of archaic religious believers cling on to old ideals and teachings that are clearly outdated. Much the same way that the Authority's Guard won't let him free from his crystal cage even though he's clearly happy when he's able to die.

The reason I don't think there was a huge scale epic struggle to overcome the wrathful almighty was because Pullman obviously wanted to show that even children in their innocence are still valuable and capable and, I dunno, there's something fitting about a being so old being swept aside by youth.

This is why I see the last movie not working like the LotR movies. There's hardly a battle. The entire book is Lyra and Will's journey.
Not that this thread has anything to do with the movie or anything .

ahh i disagree..
What about the battle with asriel's forces and metatrons?
I know it's not as big and explodey as LotR but heck if hollywood won't make it exactley like that nobody can...

nice postie there jamie. And yes they are gonna have troubles with the movie still I would say.

The way the Authority was killed is similar to the way everything happens in HDM - in the way you'd least expect it. It's like how Lyra has to go about fulfilling her destiny without being aware she's doing it, because otherwise it won't work. They have to kill the Authority without being aware of the incredible, momentous, history-changing thing they're doing, because otherwise, they would stop, and think about it, and waste time, and maybe not do the right thing (if there is a right thing to do) Do that make sense?

He's not even really the Authority anymore though, he's god but had no uthority himself. It's sort of a mercy killing anyways. I remember that they say something about his facial expression being "bewildered delight" or somehting like that, implying he was happy. Which I would think he would be. To return to the universe is better than being kept locked up in a crystal coffin. I don't think that it was in their "destiny" but I think it was better that they did it than him being killed by the Regeant or whatever they had planned for him.

Will's father also believed that it was his son's task to fight the Authority. But in the end they don't even need the knife to destroy God.

Although the knife is not used against the Authority, the knife is used to cut through the crystal to release him, bringing about his end indirectly.

Why did Pullman make the Authority so weak?

The Authority is not the creator, he is the oldest angel. He then lied about his creative power to the angels that came into being later.

Does it in some way represent the corruption of the Church?

Interesting idea. Metatron thought the Church was corrupt and too weak.

I remember that they say something about his facial expression being "bewildered delight" or somehting like that, implying he was happy. Which I would think he would be. To return to the universe is better than being kept locked up in a crystal coffin.

Yes, it is like they've actually done him a favour. I suppose when you've lived for so long, it's a relief to finally let go. Which brings up another question: why did Metatron want the Authority to be kept alive, even if only for a little longer?

Although the knife is not used against the Authority, the knife is used to cut through the crystal to release him, bringing about his end indirectly.

That's true. So the knife was necessary in the end. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who imagined a battle where Will actually had to fight the Authority and use the knife as a weapon, rather like he kills the Spectres.

The Authority is not the creator, he is the oldest angel. He then lied about his creative power to the angels that came into being later.

Yes, I know, but I think you missed the point. Pullman could have made the Authority an immensely old and strong angel (i.e. like Metatron). Why didn't he? Why make the Authority a gibbering wreck and create Metatron to take over?

I still like Jamie's idea but I wonder where Metatron fits in that interpretation. Perhaps Metatron represents the corrupt version of God, the one that men twist to fit their own ideals. Metatron's style is basically using his power to oppress - very much like religious leaders use the authority of their god to do the same.

Pullman could have made the Authority an immensely old and strong angel (i.e. like Metatron). Why didn't he? Why make the Authority a gibbering wreck and create Metatron to take over?

That may be Pullman's way of saying that one tired, old religion can be replaced or ousted by another newer one, but that doesn't mean it's better and that it may be worse.

It relates to alot of political situations in our own society actually, if you think of it like that.

I always thought it was meant to be ironic that wind, which is traditionally a symbol of God's power, is what destroyed the Authority. Compare to Genesis 1: "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." God's word or breath is also symbolized by wind several times in the Bible.

I think it's kinda funny, ya know. The old "Kill em with kindness" adage. But I think a cool fight scene between Will and Metatron would have been better. But meh, he was a pansy about killing.

But I think a cool fight scene between Will and Metatron would have been better.

Thank ~*iguana*~ you're not Weitzy then.

But meh, he was a pansy about killing.

That's about as stupid as comments get on these here boards really; congratulations.

But meh, he was a pansy about killing.

It's always like that for me ... get in there for the kill, then lose heart at the last moment

First off he's an old man, and old, old angel. he's got no power, he's got no strength, why should his death matter more than the others? I'd say he has an incredably dramtic ending-just look at the scene-just like the millions of others who are dying defending/attacking the Fortress.

How was that stupid? I'll honor the fact that he's willing to do it if necessary, but every time he kills somebody, he leans over and pukes!! That doesn't sound like a very strong moral code to me. When you're in that kind of a situation, it's kill or be killed. There's no sense in worrying about it when it's already been done. It bugs me that they call him a murderer, too. In both cases, he only killed in self-defense. That's called justifiable homicide and we don't convict people for that. so CHILL!! Oh, yeah, I didn't say I wanted Will to fight Metatron. I just watched the Matrix again, and that was stuck in my head. I was kidding about that.

Okay, people, let's have civil discussion and settle down. Fair?

I think what you have to understand about Will is that he isn't the type of person to have a thick shell when it comes to doing horrilbe things that need to be done. That's just the way he is.

As for being called a "murderer," bear in mind that the alethiometer is, to my recollection, the only thing that calls him that, and Lyra actually respects him for that. It seems plausible to me that calling him a murderer, in this sense, is not a reproach as we would normally think of it.