The Republic of Heaven

Call me an idiot, but I can't really figure out what Dust really is. I figure it's a symbol of knowledge, experience, and love, but I don't really know which it is or if I'm completely wrong. Tell me what it is, almighty geniuses of the universe.

conciousness



life

It’s an energy field created by all living things. And, Lyra is the one who will bring balance to it. Oops wrong trilogy.

Seriously, in TSK when Mary is in the “Cave,â€

Yes, Dust is quite a complicated matter... (no pun intended).

Here are a few more ideas (I'd give you the references if I had them; as it is, you will just have to trust me that those ideas are taken straight off the bookds)

-Matter loves Dust.
-Dust and consciousness are, in a way, the same thing, because:
-Dust clusters around beings when they become conscious of themselves, and
-Beings become conscious of themselves when they gather Dust.
(Which is just like the quesiton of what came first, chicken or egg?)
-Dust lingers around things that have been consciously worked on.

Here is a poser: Is Dust the result of awareness, or is awareness the result of Dust?

-Dust is, according to a scholar Lyra meets at Ms Coulter's party in book one, an "emanation of the dark principle".
-Does Dust love Matter?

Y.

Here is a poser: Is Dust the result of awareness, or is awareness the result of Dust?

Y.

Dust is awareness, isn't it? Kind of a physical manifestation of it... what was the quote... particles of consciousness or something. According to the Shadows that Mary talks to, matter and spirit are one. And daemons are similar to Dust, so there's some sort of spiritual connection too.

It is kind of confusing.

Yes... though I'd prefer the word "complex"

Here is another thing. As Jez points out, daemons are similar to Dust, and matter and spirit are one. When Will and Lyra come back after doing whatever they did for the first time (i.e. after they cross over from innocence into experience, or if you like, as they have become aware), Mary Malone and Attal notice that they are all covered in Dust. Important: their daemons are still out and about, doing their own thing. So... Dust goes to the "disendaemoned" body.

Remember the threefold nature of people-like beings: body - ghost - daemon. Or, put differently, "people" have a material side and a non-material side to them. Now, Will remarks "The body is the best part" (somewhere in the Marzipan chapter, I believe). In other words: the materialist part of our nature is what really matters (again, no pun intended). This message is reinforced by Dust collecting on our (material) bodies.

So, what is to be made of this? In order to come to understand what Dust is/could be, it might be a good idea to slip into that state of mind that Lyra went into when reading the Alethiometer (what Keats called "negative capability"). Imagine a box you can put stuff in. The single items you put into that box might not mix well, but we just don't care and put them all in the box anyway. The label we put on the box is "Dust", of course.

So here goes: the ongoing attempt to put stuff into the box labelled Dust:
Dust is Matter.
Dust is Spirit.
Dust is People.
Dust is Beautiful.
Dust is like the Reflection of Light off Waves of Water.
Dust is...

Y.

I see it as dust and consciousness being co-dependant. Dust would not exist without consciousness, and vice versa. You can see that in the seed-pod trees and the mulefa.

The matter of which came first is a poser. Surely, one would have needed to exist before the other, which opens up the idea of a God. But that's strange in itself because it contradicts much of what the books (especially TAS) say.

Surely, one would have needed to exist before the other, which opens up the idea of a God. But that's strange in itself because it contradicts much of what the books (especially TAS) say.

So what existed before God, eh?

Believers look at the world, wonder how it was created and come up with God. Athiests do the same, but then ask who created God in the first place. If you say 'God just existed' then why can't you just say 'matter just existed'?

Eventually it makes your head hurt, I prefer not to think about it anymore.

Dust, in a way, is god. Not in the "on the first day He created the world" sense. But in the sense of "something that gives meaning to our existence". This reading seems to be somewhat consistent with the books, I believe.

Here is a link to a very interesting and entertaining read. Douglas Adams, author of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" muses about the question, "is there an artificial god". It is a bit lengthy, but HIGHLY thought-provoking. I strongly recommend reading it. In this essay, the question of how god came into existence (from an atheist's point of view, no less) is satisfactorily answered...

http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/

Dust, in a way, is god. Not in the "on the first day He created the world" sense. But in the sense of "something that gives meaning to our existence". This reading seems to be somewhat consistent with the books, I believe.

i compleately agree, thatw what i was going to write but i was in a hurry....

Surely, one would have needed to exist before the other, which opens up the idea of a God. But that's strange in itself because it contradicts much of what the books (especially TAS) say.

So what existed before God, eh?

Believers look at the world, wonder how it was created and come up with God. Athiests do the same, but then ask who created God in the first place. If you say 'God just existed' then why can't you just say 'matter just existed'?

Eventually it makes your head hurt, I prefer not to think about it anymore.

I think a theist would argue that God is outside space and time, and therefore does not have to abide to the same rules as matter.

Yes I realise that, but for me it doesn't make sense.

Especially if God is Dust:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Surely, one would have needed to exist before the other, which opens up the idea of a God. But that's strange in itself because it contradicts much of what the books (especially TAS) say.

So what existed before God, eh?

Believers look at the world, wonder how it was created and come up with God. Athiests do the same, but then ask who created God in the first place. If you say 'God just existed' then why can't you just say 'matter just existed'?

Eventually it makes your head hurt, I prefer not to think about it anymore.

I'm an atheist, I believe in the big bang theory. But, I think we will never know where the original Hydrogen atoms came from, it's like trying to define time.

I was looking at a God in the context of one in the HDM world, maybe not one that created everything, but one that just tipped the first domino.

I think you can make a plausible argument that, in HDM, the abyss is god. It is capable of pulling all consciousness, Dust, into itself. It sucked in matter, Asriel and Marissa. Maybe it is from where Dust, consciousness, and matter sprang. Maybe it is feed up with humanities’ and angelic complete misunderstanding of life. But, it gave the conscious multiverse one last chance to prove it should continue.

The Abyss is God.

Is it? *Dust* is the Logos, or the consciousness pervading the multiverse. The Abyss is the absense of Dust, or the void. If you're ascribing God to anything, then this ain't it. It's Satan in the sense that if God is everything, then Satan is nothing.

It is capable of pulling all consciousness, Dust, into itself. It sucked in matter, Asriel and Marissa. Maybe it is from where Dust, consciousness, and matter sprang. Maybe it is feed up with humanities’ and angelic complete misunderstanding of life. But, it gave the conscious multiverse one last chance to prove it should continue.

Are you just trying to prove that in some way PP, in HDM, is saying that God is good? Because I really don't think you're going to find that message, and that's ignoring the fact that the Abyss didn't give anyone 'one last chance' or get fed up with conscious life.

If you don't like the message of God being evil or false in HDM, that's fine, it's up to you. But I don't get why you're trying to twist the message of the book so that it fits in with your beliefs.

Good points Melancholy Man, but I never said "The Abyss is God." I used a small "g" and said you could argue that point and used a couple of plausible ideas. You made good points to the contrary. However, I don’t know how we arrived at “Dust is consciousâ€

Even though I don't really get what you've said in reply to Alec's post, at least you've clarified. And maybe so should I: What I meant was, HDM an attack on the church, amongst other things. And while you say you didn't mean a literal 'God', your description of the Abyss 'creating' matter and life and 'giving life one more chance' certainly seemed to me an image of a real God. What I was saying is that, with that and some of your other posts, you seem to be wanting there to be some sort of Christian message behind the book - in fact, you even indirectly said it in one post.

And Dante the message of HDM has nothing to do with God being good or evil. The only message I’ve found that it says about a Creator is that the Authority it not it. What I don’t get about you is that when you don’t like what someone says you resort to name calling and say that’s not what the books about.

Um, right. First of all, perhaps - perhaps barring my comment on this thread, I've never just said 'That's not what the books are about' and left it at that. And I've never called you or anyone else any 'names' because of a debate about the books.

That is not the way we have adult discussions. You don’t seem to like debate. Debate is good; it is taking a proposition and defending or attacking it with facts and ideas.

Wow. Thanks for being so condescending, that's really brought me round to your way of thinking.

[quote="sageadvice"]However, I don’t know how we arrived at “Dust is consciousâ€