The Republic of Heaven

Okay, there are a couple of questions in this thread:

#1:
It seems to be that the Specters of Indifference eat people's dæmons. Their soul gets sucked out of them, and they're left to be eternally indifferent but still somehow alive. My question is this: how do they survive when their dæmon is taken away like this? Is the eaten dæmon not dead? It's my understanding that when your dæmon dies, you die as well. I know, people survive intercision, but their dæmons are still alive, just disconnected from their bodies. This leads me to my second question...

#2
Zombi. They seem to be able to communicate normally (though they follow orders without hesitation), which is different from the people attacked by Specters. Specter victims are mindless and wander the earth indifferently forever. Do zombi seem to have more consciousness because their dæmons are still in existence and not completely gone? Is it because they're adults and have higher endurance levels that they don't die when/shortly after the operation is performed?

((Note: Before I get bombarded with spelling corrections for "specter", you should know that I have the Yearling edition and it is spelled "specter" in the book I have. Yes, really.))

In my understanding, the daemon is a human's driving force and reason to be alive. Thus, when the daemon is disconnected its human just doesn't care any more. Also, the daemon being killed does not necessarily signal the death of its person. A man can loose his soul and/or his mind, but still be alive.
I think that people attacked by Spectres also have their mind removed, not just the daemon. Intercised people only lose their daemon, and so can still follow orders. Spectered people just seem to lose everything concious about them.

Exactly. Intercised people could tell that there was something wrong (Tony asking where his daemon Ratter was) and could function (the nurses). People attacked by Spectres seemed to lose all their will to live, and cannot be described as functioning. (there's a scene where the witches witness a Spectre attack, and observe a parent ignoring his/her child).

I think the spectres cause you to go ultra-emo (I forget the exact quote). Loss of a daemon won't kill you instantly unless it is violent (you're dragged apart or the daemon is shot or killed).

So it won't kill you straight away, although you will probably die before too long.

I don't think it's the violence that is the factor, it's the method used. The Guillotine uses a special type of blade, and the witches split themselves from their daemons via a terrible ritual. Having your daemon shot or ripped from you by distance isn't... how to phrase it... 'special' enough, in a sick sort of way.

Ultracommando93 wrote:I think the spectres cause you to go ultra-emo (I forget the exact quote).

I believe it was something along the lines of:

Philip Pullman wrote:"...as the wiches looked down they saw a stream of those spectral forms pouring across the grass, seeming to flow with no effort towards the people, their prey.
... [the children] clung together weeping as the Spectres attacked the adults causing them to go ultra-emo and grow long, dyed-black fringes."

moonflash wrote:Having your daemon shot or ripped from you by distance isn't... how to phrase it... 'special' enough, in a sick sort of way.

I think it might have something to do with violence though... In TSK, Lee was trying to get his balloon off the ground but these Tartars (I think) were holding him down, one of their daemons was on the ground, and he got ripped apart by that distance and died instantly. The Tartar I mean, not Lee.

The man probably died from the fall and the shock of separation combined. As it is possible for people to be separated by any means and still survive...zombis are separated by tearing, as are the slaves the Tartars use (mentioned in NL). Death usually occurs from the shock of separation, and the realisation that one is truly alone, which leads to loss of will to live and therefore death. As is shown with zombis and the nurses, it is possible to survive, though a very hard mental effort to pull through the ordeal of separation. Possibly if one is still with their daemon, as in physically nearby, they are able to pull thorugh much more easily, as their daemon is still their and they can take some comfort from that. However when the separation is absolute and the human is not allowed to see his/her daemon, mental recovery is more difficult and death often ensues (as in the case of Tony Makarios (sp) and some of the other severed children from Bolvangar)

Ah, but you forget Lyra, Will, and the gallevispian spies.
The land of the dead chapter sees them being torn by distance. So why did they survive? Possibly because they still had a will to live, to see a goal through. The gallevispian were charged to follow Will and Lyra, Lyra to see Roger, Will to see his father.

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Or perhaps, because they had a stronger will than Tony and the seperated Bolvangars.

Mod edit: Double post merged

Indeed, as i said, or at least intended to say, the only way to survive is to cope with the ordeal; Will and Lyra coped because they had each other and they had a definate purpose and they believed they would see their daemons again. The gallevspians survived also because they had a purpose, and because they are somewhat mentally hardened, and therfore less liable to break down and lose the will to live completely.

I figured something out! XD That sounded odd, but whatever.
The Specters must feast on your ghost as well, not just your daemon. That way your body is still alive, but your daemon is gone. Make sense?
Or else, perhaps, they eat your death. So you can't die. Do Speccter victims even die eventually? Like of old age or something? *starts pondering more theories* Anyway...

Hmm, do Specter victims die? Yes I do believe so, because otherwise Cittagazze would be teeming with undead people! Besides it would be physically impossible for a person to live on forever, ghost or not. I'm guessing that their indifference would extend to the fact that they wouldn't feel/respond to hunger or cold, and eventually die of hunger, or cold. XD Or something like that. As for your original questions about the difference between losing your daemon or losing your soul, I partially agree with the person who said it was will driving them on, and I partially agree with the fact that Specters suck more than your daemon in. When you lose your daemon, you lose part of your consciousness, your mind. But when a Specter kisses you (why am I thinking Dementors?) you lose your daemon, and your actual soul. I refer to Lyra when she says (I can't find the actual quote) that there is mind and spirit, but she was thinking about her spirit which meant there had to be a third part. If we add daemons, then there is a total of four parts. Well cutting your daemon away takes away one part; the actual daemon. But being kissed by a Specter takes away two parts; perhaps spirit and daemon? Well it's something along the lines of that. As for daemons being killed, I agree with the fact that it is the shock that kills the person. More on that topic next time! XD

I believe it was fairly clearly stated that the type of separation that the witches undergo, and thus that Lyra, Will, and the Gallivespians also went through, was not at all the same as intercission.

What the witches experience is a physical separation between human and daemon only. The spiritual bond survives. In intercission, the separation is both physical and spiritual.

Now to the original point - I think the supposition that the spectres consume the person's daemon is missing the main thing that spectres do. Spectres consume Dust. And as we know, without Dust, there is no consciousness.

So a person who has been intercised, if they survive the shock, still has some amount of Dust left. A Spectre consumes it all.

Rachaman wrote: Spectres consume Dust. And as we know, without Dust, there is no consciousness.

So a person who has been intercised, if they survive the shock, still has some amount of Dust left. A Spectre consumes it all.

Excellent point. Touche.

I realize I posted this inquiry before I had finished TAS so some of what I've been talking about is a bit strange. Actually, now that I think of it, all of what I've been saying could easily be contradicted. *slaps forehead* Forgive my ignorance.

Rachaman is right here, as he so often is. It is immaterial whether Spectres consume one's dæmon or ghost, as they are two aspects of the same thing. I would like to quote, if I may:

Orson Scott Card wrote:I once heard a tale of a man/Who split himself in two/The one part never changed at all/The other grew and grew/The changeless part was always true/The growing part was always new/And I wondered when the tale was through/Which part was me and which was you.

The moment I saw this I thought of dæmons and ghosts. As Mr. Card so beautifully illustrates, soul (dæmon) and mind (ghost) are flip sides of a metaphorical coin (thought/conciousness). Dust is the physical embodiment of conciousness, therefore, without Dust there is no conciousness, ergo no dæmon and no ghost. Just bodies without driving force behind them. If you read carefully enough into the story, you'll find references to this (bodies without driving force behind them)
repeated over and over in descriptions and actions of the subtle knife, the Spectres, and the Abyss.

SoulLily wrote:I figured something out! XD That sounded odd, but whatever.
The Specters must feast on your ghost as well, not just your dæmon. That way your body is still alive, but your dæmon is gone. Make sense?
Or else, perhaps, they eat your death. So you can't die. Do Speccter victims even die eventually? Like of old age or something? *starts pondering more theories* Anyway...

I don’t think your death is made of dust. They can’t just live forever because there would be random people standing all over the city. They must die of starvation. Which, unfortunately means that the children have to take care of the bodies....