The Republic of Heaven

There might be a thread already, but I went back 3 pages and couldn't find anything.


Anyways, how do dæmons get names? Do they get born with them or are they christaned by the parents like the child. If so then why do some daemons get such odd and archane names and others get very normal ones (Like Ratter). I know that in the final book Serfina names Will dæmons but those arn't exactly normal circumstances...

I like to think that Pantalaimon was named by the scholars of Jordan when Lyra was taken into their care.

If the parents name the child, do the parents' dæmons name the child, I wonder?

I've kinda thought it was related to status. Let's remember that Lyra and Asriel's daemons had very...proud names. Lee and Roger admittedly had more normal-sounding names.

I guess Pan was named before they went to live at the College. Even if Ma just called him 'Pan'. Maybe his name got added onto as time went on?

Or perhaps at their Christening (or other similar ceremony) the priest or the parents name the daemon so that it has special meaning or somesuch?

I really wish Pullman had explained this in the books or something although it is fun to muse on.

Maybe the daemon just knows its name. Or, perhaps the human and daemon decide on a name together. I just can't see the parent or parent's daemon naming a child's daemon. I mean, there are tons of instances in which a child is brought up without his or her parents. Who would name the daemon then?

Also, I don't think a daemon needs a name right at birth. When someone is referring to the child, they would call them by the human name. No one ever refers to Lyra as "Lyra and Pantalaimon." The daemon's name is really mostly used by its human, so I'd guess that's who'd name it.

Maybe the dæmon just knows its name. Or, perhaps the human and dæmon decide on a name together. I just can't see the parent or parent's dæmon naming a child's dæmon. I mean, there are tons of instances in which a child is brought up without his or her parents. Who would name the dæmon then?

Also, I don't think a dæmon needs a name right at birth. When someone is referring to the child, they would call them by the human name. No one ever refers to Lyra as "Lyra and Pantalaimon." The dæmon's name is really mostly used by its human, so I'd guess that's who'd name it.

But would Lyra call Pan 'pantalaimon'?

Just somthing I noitced today while reading through NL and trying to avoid my History-all the scholars daemons also have very educated sounding names-but I doubt that they all had hugley educated parents. Anyone know what the Golden Monkeys name is?

Anyone know what the Golden Monkeys name is?

Harry Palmer

The radio show says it's Ozymandias, which makes sense, but PP himself never offered us a name.

Philip Pullman has said that the daemons of the child's parents choose the name of the child's daemon--so Stelmaria and the Golden Monkey would've picked Pantalaimon's name (assuming they were both there at the time of Lyra's birth, anyway...) Makes you wonder why they picked it

I'm sorry that I can't give you the exact quote. I read it in an interiew with PP, but as I've read a ton of interviews with PP I can't say which one it was.

Philip Pullman has said that the daemons of the child's parents choose the name of the child's dæmon--so Stelmaria and the Golden Monkey would've picked Pantalaimon's name (assuming they were both there at the time of Lyra's birth, anyway...) Makes you wonder why they picked it

I can't imagine that Coulter and Asriel would have been in the same room long enough after Lyra was born for their daemons to do any naming. I expect it was the Scholars, as Rosie says.

I wonder who names the daemons of orphans, or ignored or abandoned children. We can't expect that Serafina is always going to be around to drop a name. Social workers and nurses, I guess.

I always thought that, as Leif said, the dæmons know their own names from birth. It seems to make sense since a dæmon isn't a pet, it's your soul, and giving your soul a name is a little.. well, condescending, I guess. It also makes sense in the case of the Golden Monkey, which doesn't need a name. It just makes it that little bit more chilling. I highly doubt that Marisa's parents' dæmons would've said "Eh, look, we've talked about this and we decided her dæmon doesn't really need a name. Welcome to the world, Golden Monkey!"
I found it a little annoying that the names of dæmons of poor people like Tony weren't as fancy as Lyra's or Asriel's. It's not as if the poverty of a person dictates his name, so why should it dictate his dæmon's name?
On a side note, what was Roger's dæmon's name? It's slipped my mind.

I can't imagine that Coulter and Asriel would have been in the same room long enough after Lyra was born for their daemons to do any naming.

I think I've found a quote that may suggest that it was possible for The Golden Monkey to name Lyra's daemon.

In 'Northern Lights', when Lyra is being told who her real parents are, John Faa tells her that...

"Now when your mother found herself with child, she feared to tell her husband the child wasn't his. And when the baby was born- that's you, girl- it was clear from the look of you that you didn't favour her husband, but your true father, and she thought it best to hide you away and give out that you'd died
"So you was took to Oxfordshire, where your father had estates, and put in the care of a gyptian woman to nurse..."

etc. It's on page 123 of the UK edition of 'Northern Lights' if you want to read the full account.

So I think that it may have been possible for the Golden Monkey to name Pantalaimon in that time period between Lyra's birth and when Mrs Coulter's husband was killed by Lord Asriel.

I'm not saying that's definitely how it happened, but I think it's a possibility.

Philip Pullman has said that the daemons of the child's parents choose the name of the child's dæmon...

And if the child's parents are both dead?

I always figured the daemon was named at the same time the person was. By the parents' daemons, if they are alive, or around, or else by the daemon of whoever gave the child it's name. If Marisa named Lyra, then the Golden mokey named Pan, or if the gyptian nurse named Lyra, her daemon named Pan. I imagine that in most families, however, the naming works much the way it does in our world, with the parents picking names together, but the parents' daemons pick names too.

Philip Pullman has said that the daemons of the child's parents choose the name of the child's dæmon--so Stelmaria and the Golden Monkey would've picked Pantalaimon's name (assuming they were both there at the time of Lyra's birth, anyway...) Makes you wonder why they picked it

I'm sorry that I can't give you the exact quote. I read it in an interiew with PP, but as I've read a ton of interviews with PP I can't say which one it was.

That really intresting, can you give me the naem of the show?

*high fives Ralphie*

I'm going to be stubborn and stick with my theory. I dunno, it just doesn't seem right for a potentially random person (or daemon) to name one's soul...

I wonder who names the daemons of orphans, or ignored or abandoned children. We can't expect that Serafina is always going to be around to drop a name. Social workers and nurses, I guess.

Somehow I can't imagine there being social workers around. I can, however, well imagine that the wretched ignored, abandoned and orphaned children would have been left to the tender mercies of priests and nuns. As Lyra was, originally, so perhaps it was the sisters at Watlington who gave Pantalaimon his monicker?

Yeah, I think the daemon is probably named by the daemon of the person who sees the child grow up, because they would then be able to know what name would suit the daemon given the traits.

Which might explain why Serafina could name Will's daemon, because she observed his journey with Lyra and saw his characteristics.

Yeah, I think the dæmon is probably named by the dæmon of the person who sees the child grow up, because they would then be able to know what name would suit the dæmon given the traits.

Which might explain why Serafina could name Will's dæmon, because she observed his journey with Lyra and saw his characteristics.

But Will Parry's an exceptional case. What about his father John? How was his daemon named? This is an honest question. I don't recall what happened.

Did Sefafina give Kirjava her name or simply divine it?

I'm really irritated that I can't find the article in which PP says that the parents daemons name the child's daemon, because I swear I didn't make it up! He had been asked how daemons were born, and responded that, although he didn't know much about that, he did know how they were named, and that it was done through the process I already mentioned.

In my opinion, a daemon would certainly not name itself, nor would its human. Why didn't Kirjava name herself? She blatantly says that she doesn't know her name, because she didn't know she was born until she was torn out of Will when he went into the land of the dead. A daemon's ability to name itself would be, in my opinion, similar to an ability to know its true nature, which it doesn't. daemons don't really know what they will settle as until they settle, the children at Bolvangar discuss this. If daemons knew what they would settle as or were able to name themselves appropraitely, that would give a person with a daemon a more intimate and accurate knowledge of their soul than could ever be acheived by a person from, say, Will's world. And I think that certainly is not Pullman's intention.

Thats why I'm in favor of what Pullman himself says, not only because its obviously true seeing as he created the entire concept of daemons, but because it makes sense to me. Serafina chooses Kirjava's name for a reason--Kirjava asks what it means, and Serafina says that she will soon find out. As it turns out, Kirjava settles as a multicolored cat, and the name itself means "multicolored" or "many-colored." As a witch, it seems to me that Serafina is more intune with dust and that kind of knowledge and foresight than normal humans, and I think the same is also true of daemons, seeing as they are essentially made of or the same thing as Dust. I hope that makes sense written down like it does in my head.

As far as orphans and abandoned children go, I think they're probably named by the daemons of social workers and the people at orphanages, as you guys suggested. But I definately think that the daemons do the naming, not the people themselves, because I feel like the daemon is the part of you that is most closely linked with Dust and that type of knowledge.

And just because we don't know the Golden Monkey's name doesn't mean he is nameless. I take Mrs. Coulter as a character who we can never truly know because she confides in no one (except her daemon), so she is the only one who really understands her true self. We might not know her real motives or her daemon's name, but in my opinion she certainly does.

It'd be good if you could track down that PP quote, MM. Because I still see no reason why the daemon's name should not be an innate property of itself, waiting to be discovered, just as a human has innate knowledge and capabilities that are not apparent at birth but reveal themselves over time.

Heavens! I'm still discovering new things about myself...