Geography & daemons

[Beausabre]

Is the roster of available daemon shapes limited by the territory that the human inhabits? In other words, would a kangaroo daemon, not being native to the British Isles, be capable of becoming an English child's daemon? I think the answer is yes - which brings up the question of how people reacted when they got a kangaroo before Oz was discovered by Europeans!

[Rachaman]

There is at least one hint that the animal shapes your daemon inhabits is related to your own knowledge.

In Oxford, just before Lyra sets the town looking for Billy Costa, she and several other children nearly clash before Ma Costa interrupts them. Everyone's daemon puffs up somewhat, but Pan mentally chides the other children for their 'lack of imagination' when he becomes a dragon.

So it may be that you could not have a kangaroo daemon if you've never heard of one.

[missmolly]

I agree with Rachaman--I think its possible for your daemon to become a creature that isn't native to your geographic area as long as you're familiar with that animal. I know there's a part in TAS when Ama sees Lyra sleeping in the cave and notes that her daemon has the form of some white animal (an ermine) she's never seen before. Also, I remember that in TGC/NL Pantalaimon copies the shape of the Golden Monkey for awhile after they first meet Coulter.

Stelmaria, Lord Asriel's daemon, is a snow leopard, and I'm pretty sure those aren't running rampant around the English countryside. So I always assumed he had seen them and felt an affinity for them at a young age.

[Beausabre]

I agree with Rachaman--I think its possible for your dæmon to become a creature that isn't native to your geographic area as long as you're familiar with that animal. I know there's a part in TAS when Ama sees Lyra sleeping in the cave and notes that her dæmon has the form of some white animal (an ermine) she's never seen before. Also, I remember that in TGC/NL Pantalaimon copies the shape of the Golden Monkey for awhile after they first meet Coulter.

Stelmaria, Lord Asriel's dæmon, is a snow leopard, and I'm pretty sure those aren't running rampant around the English countryside. So I always assumed he had seen them and felt an affinity for them at a young age.

So presumably Lord A's parents took him to the zoo or a circus when he was a child and he saw a snow leopard or one of his first childhood gifts was a bestiary where he saw a picture of one.

I like it, it makes sense.

Thanks!

[missmolly]

Oh, I like that!

It makes me wonder why Mrs. Coulter's daemon is a golden monkey. I mean, obviously the animal itself is a really good representation of some of her most important qualities, but where would she have seen such a monkey? I remember at one point she sees a man with a monkey daemon, but this one is just a regular monkey and cowers before Coulter's daemon.

I could see Coulter being brought up in an English colony somewhere exotic. Africa, perhaps? PP mentions several times that she's been to Africa--afterall, thats where she learned about Zombis and the spy flies. Maybe she was raised there? Interesting!

Or perhaps I have an overactive imagination and she was just a big fan of the zoo. Dunno!

[Somewhat]

I always imagined that Marisa would've been brought up in a British colony somewhere in Africa. She seems exactly that kind of person, a daughter of rich haughty colonials - and she inherited the ubiquitous colonial grandeur and elegance from them, too. Given all that, the golden monkey makes a lot of sense as a daemon.
As for Lord Asriel... I'm not sure who his parents could be, but like all little boys he would've dreamt of exploring and sailing the seas, and in Lyra's world especially of the North.

[missmolly]

Yes! Thats very much how I see her childhood.

John Faa makes a comment when he's telling Lyra about her parents for the first time, something about Mrs. Coulter being "not so well-born" as Lord Asriel. I don't know how the English system of titles goes, but I'm fairly sure that Lord Asriel would've inherited the title of Lord from his father. So I'm guessing his parents were some pretty powerful, not to mention some very rich, people.

[Beausabre]

Yes! Thats very much how I see her childhood.

John Faa makes a comment when he's telling Lyra about her parents for the first time, something about Mrs. Coulter being "not so well-born" as Lord Asriel. I don't know how the English system of titles goes, but I'm fairly sure that Lord Asriel would've inherited the title of Lord from his father. So I'm guessing his parents were some pretty powerful, not to mention some very rich, people.

1) The original story was that Lyra's father was a Count and he and her mother had perished in accident, leaving her an orphan under the care of her uncle, Lord Asriel. Count is not a British title, the equivalent is Earl (from the Middle English "Eorl" or "Warrior")., which indicates that the Belacqua family is not originally English.

2) As Lyra's "father" held a title, it indicated that he was the eldest brother. If the grandfather was dead, he inherited that title. If the grandfather was alive, the eldest son would have assumed the next highest family title. (ie: The son of Duke "ABC" might be Count "XYZ" until his father dies, when he becomes Duke "XYZ" and his son becomes a count)

Asriel, as a younger son, would have the courtesy title of Lord Asriel

3) As Lord Asriel did not become Count Belacqua upon his brother's death, there must have been a middle brother who inherited the title of count.

So Lord Asriel was the scion of Continental nobility - yeah, they probably had a few (insert local currency) to throw around.

By the way, as far as Lyra goes -

1) Under the Lex Salica (which applies to a good portion of the contenent), she could not inherit the title. It went to the nearest male relative, no matter how distant.

2) If the world never discovered he truw parentage and it was still believed she was the daughter of a duke, she would be entitled - in Britain - to be addressed as "Lady Lyra"

3) If Asriel acknowledged her as his daughter (say, in a will), as the daughter of a younger son she remains "Miss Belacqua"

[Beausabre]

I always imagined that Marisa would've been brought up in a British colony somewhere in Africa. She seems exactly that kind of person, a daughter of rich haughty colonials - and she inherited the ubiquitous colonial grandeur and elegance from them, too.

The perfect example from our world would be Josephine Beauharnais

[Enitharmon]

I always imagined that Marisa would've been brought up in a British colony somewhere in Africa.

It's a nice thought. But Lyra's Oxford, so often dismissed by those without eyes to see, is your friend here.

Look at the list of 'Globetrotter' maps on offer. "The Saharan Kingdoms", "The Empire of Benin", "The Electorate of Zimbabwe" (eat your heart out, Robert Mugabe!), "The Kingdom of the Clove Islands".

In the L-World, there are no Brytish colonies in Africa!

[Riali]

The specifc type of Golden Monkey the Marisa has is fairly open for debate, though.
This is called a Golden Monkey, and is from Africa:
,
Here's the one they modeled the movie monkey after, a Golden Lion Tamarind from Brazil:

And this guy is a Golden Monkey from China:


I'm sure there are even more, as well. Personally, I theorize that she was the daughter of Chinese missionaries, who cared more about spreading religion than they did about loving their daughter. It supports the early and pervasive connection to the Church, and I imagine that a childhood spent as an outsider in a small and poor village would cultivate quite a desire for luxury and powerful connections.

[kadymax]

It was very interesting to read your thoughts about dæmons. I agree that dæmon will take a final form of those animals, that people saw in their life.

Morover within the story we can see that people want or dream their dæmons to take a definite form. Of course, they can't wish without seeing the animal before.

[missmolly]

Ah, I don't own a copy of Lyra's Oxford. Interesting, thanks for checking that out! Although it completely killed my theory. Oh well

The theory about the Chinese missionaries is interesting as well. Of the those three monkeys I definately prefer the one they modeled him after in the film--the one from Brazil. I suppose its just as plausible that she could've been brought up by missionary parents in Brazil.

I always saw her as going to some elite, religious, girls school, which would've been possible if she'd been raised in an English colony somewhere. I have this image of her as a young girl--frighteningly intelligent, very charming, and incredibly vicious. For me, it just screams for her to be in a catholic schoolgirl uniform to boot! Perhaps she was raised by missionary parents in Brazil/Africa/China and then sent off to English boarding school? My theories are getting crazier and crazier, I know. Not to mention more off-topic than ever!

[aklebury]

Of the those three monkeys I definately prefer the one they modeled him after in the film--the one from Brazil.

Yeah me too, it just seems the most fitting. And according to Wikipedia(take requisite grain of salt) that is the kind of monkey Pullman intended.

The 3rd monkey picture is deliciously evil looking though!

[shady]

Yeah,but i think that Coulter`s dæmon looked more elegant with much more hair,and of course it had black face,as described in book