Worse Parent

[Bellerophon]

I agree Ronni, but we digress. The question at hand isn't who is the worse person, it's who is the worse parent. I think we need to think in terms of the effects their actions had on Lyra, their child.

Each parent directly or indirectly killed one or more of her friends, and they both sacrificed themselves on her behalf. That's a wash. I'm leaning toward giving Ms. Coulter top honors for not contributing a thing to Lyra's education, for serving the abominable organization that led her to leave the safety of Jordan College in the first place, and for keeping her in a coma against her will.

Aside from killing Roger, Lord Asriel was pretty good to Lyra.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Me? Digressing and rambling? Whoever would've guessed?

I suppose you're right, Matt, but I still think both parents were indifferent to Lyra for much of the series (or, more correctly, I suppose, pretending to be indifferent to her so as to get on with more 'important' stuff). I suppose Asriel cared enough to leave Lyra in the care of people who *would* care for her and aid her intellectual growth, but that's still far from being an adequate parent.

[Lera]

It's strange for me that people think Marisa was worse parent. She was a real mother! Marisa gave everything to save her daughter. At that moment Asriel thought only about his mission. I think Asriel wasn't a parent at all. Maybe he loved Lyra, but he hadn't done anything to help her. Yes, he died (but Marisa died too). I think he did it not for his daughter's life, but for his ideas. Maybe Marisa was a bad person, but she was a great MOTHER!

[MojaveByrd]

I think that any and every action that Asriel and Mrs. Coulter took was only for themselves and their agenda. I think if Mrs. Coulter showed love regarding Lyra it was because that was what benefitted her (Mrs. Coulter) at the time. I think if Mrs. Coulter and Asriel had survived that battle and later on a situation developed where Lyra was in the way, that either of them would dispose of her without a second thought.

[Lera]

I think if Mrs. Coulter showed love regarding Lyra it was because that was what benefitted her (Mrs. Coulter) at the time.

I don't agree with this sentence, sorry. Because Pullman wrote about Marisa's feelings in that chapter, where she and Asriel fought with Metatron. Pullman discribed her emotional condition, and I don't think she pretended at that moment.

But maybe you are right. At the beginning of the books Marisa made some things which benefitted her. But her deeds were never bad for Lyra.

[krebbe]

At the beginning of the books Marisa made some things which benefitted her. But her deeds were never bad for Lyra.

Let's not forget that she abducted and drugged Lyra, which she had no right to do. Also if Lyra hadn't rescued Roger from Bolvangar, Mrs Coulter's organisation would have cut away his daemon and likely killed him. I don't see how her deeds were any more noble for Lyra than Asriel's.

[Lera]

Let's not forget that she abducted and drugged Lyra, which she had no right to do. Also if Lyra hadn't rescued Roger from Bolvangar, Mrs Coulter's organisation would have cut away his dæmon and likely killed him. I don't see how her deeds were any more noble for Lyra than Asriel's.

In my oppinion Mrs Coulter drugged Lyra, because she had no choice. Lyra hated her. And Marisa knew it. She did it because in such case her daughter was secure and Marisa always could protect her. And I don't think Marisa was happy to see her own child in such condition.

Mrs Coulter's organisation could kill Roger. And I fully agree with you. Marisa could do a lot of bad things. But Marisa loved Lyra. Marisa could be dangerous for other people but not for Lyra. And it makes her a terrible person, but she was a real mother.

[tyche]

I think that any and every action that Asriel and Mrs. Coulter took was only for themselves and their agenda. I think if Mrs. Coulter showed love regarding Lyra it was because that was what benefitted her (Mrs. Coulter) at the time. I think if Mrs. Coulter and Asriel had survived that battle and later on a situation developed where Lyra was in the way, that either of them would dispose of her without a second thought.

But showing love for Lyra didn't benfit her in anyway. By hiding her in the cave she became an enemy of the church and lost all her position and power. Killing Lyra, or at least handing her over to the church, when she found out Lyra was Eve would have benefitted her but she still didn't.

[Lera]

I think changing of Marisa's character and her attitude to life is the most important thing in the books. Pullman showed us that even the cruelest person changes in our world if his heart feels love.

Some people say that Asriel was better perant, but he even didn't say Lyra that he was her father. He was her UNCLE, but not her father. To give your child a little money one time a month or even a week isn't the reason to be called father. Asriel didn't want to become her parent. But Marisa wanted. And it doesn't matter when she understood it. I really sympathised with her. Lyra had never called her "mother" and it was Marisa's the greatest punishment for her previous life.

[Quantum Reality]

Frankly, they are both equally horrible as parents in my eyes.

I have to concur. There were times I wanted to smack them both over the head, repeatedly.

Mrs Coulter is obvious - she's unprincipled, power-mad and more than a little dangerous. She might have treated Lyra with something approaching consideration eventually, but her controlling personality would likely have reasserted itself at some point. It takes a pretty cold person to be able to watch experiments being done on children which could harm them or kill them (and the first attempts at daemon separation did indeed do this).

Lord Asriel is just as bad, but it's not as obvious. But there are some rather Dumbledoresque traits about him that are quite worrisome, such as his willingness to be detached and aloof when something has to be done for his idea of "the greater good", such as using the energy of severing of someone's daemon (Roger, as we know, dies in the first book partly because Lord Asriel needed just that to happen) to punch a hole through to another universe, as well as being able to manipulate beings like Iofur (and Lyra seems to inherit this trait in spades). Also there are a few times in the books when he verbally casts aspersions on Lyra, and there is that whole leaving-her-at-Jordan-College thing when he's supposed to be this maverick who doesn't give a damn for what the Magisterium thinks about anythng, and presumably this should include what they think about children born out of wedlock.

That is not, in principle, different from Dumbledore dropping Harry Potter on the Dursleys because he's too important to have to personally deal with the fallout of plans he himself set in motion, just as Lord Asriel apparently decided he was too busy with his Big Dust Project to worry about raising his daughter.

[Lera]

I think they are both the worse parents in the world. But in some chapters Pullman writes about their feelings so appealing that you begin perceiving them as not so bad parents. It's a part of Asriel's and Marisa's characters and it made them more complex.

[Quantum Reality]

I think they are both the worse parents in the world. But in some chapters Pullman writes about their feelings so appealing that you begin perceiving them as not so bad parents. It's a part of Asriel's and Marisa's characters and it made them more complex.

Yeah. It was a bit of a job to not get sucked in and think 'well, Mrs Coulter/Lord Asriel is not that bad after all' when I read those sections, heh.

[Lera]

It would be great if in Book Of Dust Pullman writes about Lyra's attitude to her parent's death...

[VMLM3]

They're both pretty crappy parents, it's tough though...

On the one hand Asriel obviously has very little interes in Lyra. He must love her (his vists to Jordan College, his reaction to Lyra when she finds him at the end of NL, his sacrifice for her, etc) and certainly does a good job of providing for her, but throughout the books it's painfully obvious that'll he'll leave Lyra to be someone else's problem at the first chance, and won't think twice about it.

Mrs. Coulter on the other hand is a highly capricious person, her nature makes her do some pretty horrible things to keep Lyra with her, but ultimately she's willing to give everything up simply so she can care for Lyra and make sure no harm comes to her.

So which is worse? A parent who loves you and will do anything to keep you at her side, or a parent who loves you but is only marginally interested in your life and wouldn't hesitate to leave you?

I think I'm actually leaning towards Asriel.. if only because he made a good, though distant, role model. Not to mention he did make sure she was well cared for.

[Mockingbird]

I think they are both the worse parents in the world.

I think it's more that they are simply not parents at all. They conceived Lyra, yes, but their inner lives are so rich and their ambitions are so large that they have no thought to spare for one small child. Asriel's notice of Lyra is consistently perfunctory, and Coulter's love for her is most unwillingly bestowed. It's not right but I hardly blame them for their neglect. They're the sort of people who are larger than life, and I think that a corollary of being such people is that they are sometimes quite hard. Coulter and Asriel are made of metal and stone, for the most part, I don't think they know how to feel the way parents do.

However, if I view Coulter and Asriel at a cosmic level--I don't know how else to view them--I'd say that Coulter ends her life as a better parent than Asriel. She veered the most out of character solely to be a mother. If Lyra had been a common child, Coulter would still have sacrificed herself for Lyra simply because her belated and reluctant motherly love became stronger than the rest of her grand personality. Asriel would never have compromised who he was and what he was trying to achieve to be a father.

[jmbekrub]

I think that ms. Coulter was worse. In the end of the amber spyglass, during the battle ms. Coulter goes into the huge clouded mountain to meat up with metatron (I think that is how you spell it) he inspects her, but can not find any good in her, I believe that lord asriel would have had some good in him if metatron looked at him closely enough. Even though they are both truely horrible, lord asriel had nothing to lose from going into the abyss, because he was probably going to die at that point anyways. Ms. Coulter, however, who was safely on the edge of the abyss truely sacraficed herself to ensure metatron's death. Both of them sacraficed themselves, but I believe ms. Coulter had a bigger sacrafice in the end, almost making them even, although she still came out ahead. I really fealt sorry for her when she was heald "captive" by asriel, and she was saying how great lyra is.

[shady]

I cant really decide,i think personally that Mrs. Coulter is worse,but then again on the other side she just wanted to be with Lyra.Asriel did killed her friend for his own sake,so it could be him.