The loopholes thread

[Philharmonic]

Of course, have both of them staying in the world of the mulefa, even if they both would die early.
The existance of multiple knives in other worlds.
Lodestone resonators.

Just to name a few.

(posted a while back near beginning) The lodestone resonators, they'd need some Gallivespians to operate them. Andthen there's the illness problem-but the gallivespians only live to ten years anyway, so they'd need a lot of them.


I thought what if Will made a window to Lyra's world but kept it small to prevent too much Dust loss, then widens it when necessary?

[monster8532]

I thought what if Will made a window to Lyra's world but kept it small to prevent too much Dust loss, then widens it when necessary?

I think thats a very good idea and about the lodestone resonator couldn't the gallivespians (not sure on the spelling) teach them

[Philharmonic]

theyre a bit big for that eh?

[BiQ]

I do not think there really are any loopholes to allow L&W to be together, aside from maybe that "learnable" travel technique Xaphania told that Shamans and Witches know. And learning that takes a long time, iirc.

Knife had to be broken, to prevent (or slow) it from falling into wrong hands to create havoc. (actually, I'm thinking here might be a "loose end", in the sense that if someone gets hold of the pieces, like steals them from Will, they might get someone to fix it and start doing bad things again.)

Only one knife-made window can be left open. Only one. Period. I'd like to point some things out about it:

Yes, there were lots of knife-made windows open during the last 300 years. I think the key issue is the "Dust reserves" of all the worlds simply were large enough to begin with, so it did not run completely "dry". But, as a parallel, even the largest pool of water will eventually be empty if the supply does not replenish all that was drained away in the same time. This is, why it can make sense that all the created dust of all the worlds can sustain only one dust-draining window. And L&W made a promise to create a door out from the world of the dead for everyone. That is not a promise they can even begin to think to break.

And, that same promise also binds them afterwards: the reason why Xaphania told that all (even the "natural") windows would be closed was not to be evil to L&W. It was because even after everything that everyone (esp. L&W) had gone through, Lyra's and Will's obligations to honor the promise to keep the exit open from world of the dead were not over. Instead of wasting their lives trying to get around their situation and live together, they must ... you guessed it. "Build the Republic of Heaven" right in their home worlds, because that way they are doing their part in creating dust to make sure the only knife-made window can stay open. That is as important part of the promise to make an exit from WotD as creating and keeping the window there in the first place.

Sure, it was heart-wrenching to read that they had to be separated. But, life is not fair.

However, I do think that it would not be too much to ask to let Lyra & Will exchange messages by angels/witches. But then again, maybe that would just mean they would pine over each other even longer.

... and if the sadness of their fate really gets too much to bear, there's buckets of (mostly badly-written) fanfiction at fanfiction.net about it. Reading just some of it drives the point home for even the staunchest romantic why the ending was actually better this way...

[kaoshoneybun]

Thanks everyone - I just reread the end of Amber Spyglass and Xaphania's 'loophole' speech was driving me crazy because I couldn't work out what Pullman was hinting at. I'm going with the ability for the mind to somehow communicate with other minds, even across parallel worlds as Will's dad, Mary and Lyra all managed to acheive at least briefly within the trilogy.

“You could learn to do it as Will’s father did. It uses the faculty of what you call imagination. But that does not mean making things up. It is a form of seeing.”
“Not real travelling, then,” said Lyra. “Just pretend…”
“No,” said Xanaphania, “nothing like pretend. Pretending is easy. This way is hard, but much truer...But you have a friend who has already taken the first steps, and who could help you.” (AS, p.523).

The only thing that confuses me there though is that I was quite sure Pullman had refuted dualistic ideas about body and soul/mind, hence having the daemon be a physical entity and all the emphasis placed on the importance of the flesh - how does this work if the characters can leave their bodies to communicate into physical realities they don't belong too?

P.S. Anyone else think this 'imagination' thing sounds a bit like the 'Borrowing' technique of Discworld witches??

[Philharmonic]

well, i dont know what discworld is...but i think its like psychic travel or summat.

[L-Dericher]

I do not think there really are any loopholes to allow L&W to be together, aside from maybe that "learnable" travel technique Xaphania told that Shamans and Witches know.

I don't think so either, it would just kill Pullman's niveau of writing if he's just let one backdoor open for Lyra and Will to be together, let the readers come and then maybe to secretly laugh at them searching for the ending where they don't have to get separated...
And he can't have forgotten to close a loophole, because in his mind, there can't be loopholes; what's in the reader's minds can't be HDM if it has loopholes in the ending.
Thoughts can only be altered by their thinker's mind.
And because this thinker is Pullman, we will never be able to find loopholes in HDM as his thoughts.
[OT]Can someone follow me?[/OT]

But sure, I have thought of loopholes for a long time, establishing this final conclusion above.
My best idea of a working loophole is simple, working but against Pullman{read above}:

Lyra and Will have to build the Republic of Heaven where they live, for example meaning they have to convince others to hold Dust in their worlds by thoughts, love and general consciousness.
They both have to die one day, regardless of their position. What if they (let) open a last window besides the one for the dead, keep changing between their worlds - staying together - and fulfilling their task of protection for consciousness regardless of their love, and finally being buried together - wherever - after the last window is closed by an angel.
Yes, there will be Dust flowing away, that's right, but can so much of Dust be sucked out by ONE additional window during ONE lifetime that it can't be outweighed in future, by mankind becoming more conscious?
I don't think so, Lyra's and Will's worlds had to be dead alright for eons if the answer is yes.
And why can't this situation be handled as an exception? It's a really exceptional case that two humans of two different worlds meet and even more exceptional that they fall in love, so it would be logical to conclude replying to this case in an exception.

But anyway:
Pullman doesn't want there to be a loophole, so there can't be one, unless he himself says there is.
And HDM would just be one of these five trillion books where two characters meet, repel each other, are forced to cooperate, finally fall in love just to be together till the end of the world or time or whatever... their lives... ... ... *finishes sentence* without this ending.
But HDM isn't. HDM has got niveau.


The LDericher has spoken.

[reflective]

yeah, but didnt the angels say there were windows in the sky?
if she wanted to help them why nottell them about one of these instead of closing them? she said herself than all wern't made from the knife. those are the ones that let dust through

[Angel to follow]

What if they (let) open a last window besides the one for the dead, keep changing between their worlds - staying together - and fulfilling their task of protection for consciousness regardless of their love, and finally being buried together - wherever - after the last window is closed by an angel.
Yes, there will be Dust flowing away, that's right, but can so much of Dust be sucked out by ONE additional window during ONE lifetime that it can't be outweighed in future, by mankind becoming more conscious?
I don't think so, Lyra's and Will's worlds had to be dead alright for eons if the answer is yes.
And why can't this situation be handled as an exception? It's a really exceptional case that two humans of two different worlds meet and even more exceptional that they fall in love, so it would be logical to conclude replying to this case in an exception.

Essentially, whilst if we discuss the idea of finding a way for lyra and will to be together using science or metaphysics we will always find some form of loophole but let's not forget that HDM is dialectic. PP intends that Lyra and Will are to be apart and even if some loophole were to materialise they wouldn't use it because there is a greater moral understanding here. How could Will and Lyra build the RoH without such selfless action? Similarly, how would they be able to focus themselves if they were concentrating on their own relationship? Just as Christianity was built from the backs of the martyred saints, are not Will and Lyra building Roh on the backs of their own worthy sacrifice? They are exceptional because they choose not to explore the loopholes, at least not in too much detail.

[Valrad]

First of all, I'm a new, a bit old reader who has just finished The Amber Spyglass and I was thoroughly impressed with the character development, plot, and every other thing which everyone likes about the books. I do, however, have my own opinion of things, and while I never actually searched for loopholes and errors, some things were just a little more than unusual for me.

First, why was Will so vehement in not using the knife ever again when Xaphania told them it creates a specter? Both him and Lyra wanted to do so, but they both objected and in the end, they decided not to use it. However, Will seems to have totally forgotten about his promise when he so easily opens at least 4 gates in order to pass through universes at the end. He even opens an experimental one when he fails to break the knife, and his previous fiery resolution to not create any more specters seems to dwindle.

Secondly, one of the things I very much loved in the first book was the relationship between Lyra and Pantalaimon. In the second book, their relationship is barely developed and Pan is kind of absent when he should have at least get a saying in what Lyra should think about Will when they met at that cafe in Cittagazze.

Thirdly, both Pan and Kirjava promised Serafina to tell what they did to Will and Lyra, but it never happened. It was a good human and Dæmon interaction, and it never came.

[Magnhild]

What about this: TAS actually states that your dæmon can't live in any world but the one he or she was born in. Will and Lyra can be miles apart fromtheir dæmons. I know they would never choose being parted from their dæmons forever, but Will and Lyra could theoretically live with each other in one world, as long as Kirjava and Pantalimon stays behind. It would never happen obviously, since neither of them could have bared leaving their dæmon behind, but it IS possible.

[jubjub]

I know that nobody has posted for a while... but oh well... I have not read all of the posts so I do not know if this point has been made before but the loophole I have found is as follows:
Xaphania said the angels could destroy the remaining specters and close all the open windows except for the window that allows the dead to reach the world of the Mulefa. This had to be done because dust was leaking out of the openings created by the knife, however dust would not leak out when a window was quickly opened then closed, although this created another spectre. Surely then, if dust would not escape when a window was quickly closed and if the angels were able to destroy the spectres created by using the Subtle Knife, Will and Lyra could create a window into the other's world every five years or so without dust escaping and the angels could quickly incapacitate any spectres created in doing so. Thus, Will and Lyra could live happily together by changing worlds every five years or so without dust escaping and the angels could destroy any spectres created by making an opening with the knife.

[Imagine]

I know that nobody has posted for a while... but oh well... I have not read all of the posts so I do not know if this point has been made before but the loophole I have found is as follows:

You seem to have forgotten that people age much faster in a universe not their own.

[jubjub]

You seem to have forgotten that people age much faster in a universe not their own.

That does seem like a pretty big issue... I would have thought that they would still have taken any feasible alternative to being separated as long as it did no real harm to others... Perhaps if they decreased the amount of time between "world hops" and switched worlds every fortnight or so... The world in which they originated may have a regenerative effect on the harm it does to there soul and the ageing...