Will's symbolism

[Jez]

Moonflash, I'm not sure you understand what Zodiac is saying. The way I interpret his post, he is simply saying that the views/symbolism/whatever expressed in HDM are intended to apply to this world. Which seems obvious. I don't think he's saying that the book is supposed to conform to our world view, whatever that may be.

In fact, the whole point of the Adam/Eve symbolism is that it does turn the Genesis story upside down. The Fall becomes good instead of bad. Asriel, the Devil figure, is more of a hero, and God is the villain. In order to understand this reversal, you have to know something about the original story in the Bible.

Clearly, Pullman isn't trying to conform to the popular interpretation of Christianity here. The whole thing is controversial. And I don't think that Zodiac was denying that... am I understanding you correctly, Zodiac?

[Somewhat]

*Hides behind nearest tree*

[bethanwy]

*pats*

I tend to stay out of the intelligent religious discussions. I don't really have the brains for them.

[Seraphim]

That's not entirely true. We see in TAS that the battle becomes bigger than that. There are people from all kinds of worlds fighting on Lord Asriel's and the Authority's side. Metatron also wants Will and Lyra to die, and he isn't from L-world. Yes, most of the people trying to stop the prophecy are from Lyra's world, but that's because hardly anyone else knows about it.

I know that, I was speaking in comparisson between Lyra and Will's world, since the discussion is between those worlds.

I'm getting a little lost in all this discussion, but this is your belief, right?

Well, I may be wrong, and you may be right, I am not so arrogant as to claim that what I know is true. I just don't like being pushed aside and called ridiculous --- because as far as I can tell, my argument is just as good as yours.

I'm not quite sure why you're still trying to defend this. Yes, the prophecy came from Lyra's world. But the symbolism is obviously from the Bible, which is something we have in our world.

However, the interpretation of the Prophecy in HDM is not correct if you will insist it is the same as "our" Bible. That's what I wanted to point out. It may be correct in Will's Bible, but Will's world, though it is supposed to be our universe, does not exist. Therefore, the Bible interpretation, in Will's world is not accurate and should not be compared to OUR Bible, and our world. That had always been MY point.

As a writer, the symbolism you use has to be familiar to your readers. Pullman is making a comment about organised religion through a fantastical story. Just because most of it takes place in other worlds doesn't mean the symbolism isn't supposed to apply to the real world.

Symbolism does not always equivalent fact. And perhaps, Pullman's use of recognizable symbols does not apply as simply to us as you, and many others, imply. Perhaps, it's not just about religion -- organized or not -- or even about God. Perhaps he is trying to explain our existence and purpose in this world, which is quite a feat, since Science never made any claim, nor pretentious intent to explain both.

[Undestined]

No, no. The entire point of a forum is to discuss stuff.

I never implied that the stories are true. I danced around saying they weren't, because then we'd get into a different debate entirely. I'll say it now. I'll even print it in bold:
"His Dark Materials" is a work of fiction!
All better.
Anything written in the books, every letter, is intended for this world, and this alone. There may or may not be multiple worlds, but the fact of the matter is that PP wrote it for HIS, and therefore OUR world. NOTHING in the books is relevant to L-world. It is ALL intended THIS world. That doesn't seem like a difficult concept. No publisher in their right mind would try to sell a book that only makes sense to people from another world!!!

As for Zodiac... that really is a lot of rubbish. I would never read a book that was adapted to fit our world view to make money. It's like Orwell saying 'Well, since Animal Farm is a rather complex parody, and since the Alliance is trying to make friends with the USSR during the war, I won't publish it because no-one will understand it anyway; and will instead write some spiffing patriotic babble about Stalin.' Shall I write it in bold?
Rub-bish.
I may even be so brave to add that this is exactly what Pullman isn't doing.

Lyra's world DOESN'T EXIST. No author would write a book whose target audience DOESN'T EXIST! Is that really such a difficult concept?! And PP is not such a starry-eyed mystic that he would write a book only he and his NONEXISTANT characters could understand. PP wrote the book to make sense to US. REAL PEOPLE! Not Will and Lyra who, (I am very sorry to those who are in denial) DON'T EXIST!
*screams incomprehensibly and throws things*

However, the interpretation of the Prophecy in HDM is not correct if you will insist it is the same as "our" Bible.

Which Bible? There's the original Hebrew, of course, or perhaps you'd go for Greek or Latin. Since you appear to speak English, you might use a King James Bible. Or perhaps you're Catholic? (not likely, considering the Catholic bashing you did) Even within this world (the only world we know to exist), there is a lot of variation regarding "our" Bible.

[Seraphim]

Which Bible? There's the original Hebrew, of course, or perhaps you'd go for Greek or Latin. Since you appear to speak English, you might use a King James Bible. Or perhaps you're Catholic? (not likely, considering the Catholic bashing you did) Even within this world (the only world we know to exist), there is a lot of variation regarding "our" Bible.

I agree that our Bible has had many variations and many editions, and I fully agree to the fact that many would disagree with me on my choice of which edition or variation I prefer, so I would not even answer this definitively.

But there is only one "true" interpretation of the Bible, in my opinion, and it is not the one that is described and used in HDM.

Also, this remark:

yra's world DOESN'T EXIST. No author would write a book whose target audience DOESN'T EXIST! Is that really such a difficult concept?! And PP is not such a starry-eyed mystic that he would write a book only he and his NONEXISTANT characters could understand. PP wrote the book to make sense to US. REAL PEOPLE! Not Will and Lyra who, (I am very sorry to those who are in denial) DON'T EXIST!

Clearly shows you are a tad confused. For one thing, Pullman did not intend to indoctrinate anyone with his books. These are works of fiction, as you clearly stated, written for his own enjoyment. Pullman, like any other writer, does not write for anyone but himself. I should know, I'm writer. I couldn't care less who reads my work -- that is the job of the publisher. You're concept that he wrote this with a specific readership in mind is just incorrect. He wrote it because he wanted to tell the story in his head.

Also, when people here tell you that the characters don't exist --- I don't believe it was for the context you've stated above. From the previous posts, my understanding was, that the rebuttal was that Pullman was trying to convey matters, situations, and events with an imagined world in mind. That's it. I don't see any reason why you should scream your head off. Perhaps you should try to re-read the trilogy again.

[Somewhat]

*pats*

I tend to stay out of the intelligent religious discussions. I don't really have the brains for them.

*Regards latest posts*
And I don't have the stamina...

[Jez]

Well, I may be wrong, and you may be right, I am not so arrogant as to claim that what I know is true. I just don't like being pushed aside and called ridiculous --- because as far as I can tell, my argument is just as good as yours.

I'm not going to say that my interpretation of HDM is gospel truth, but so far I've found your argument to be weak, imo. That's if I'm understanding it correctly. *is beginning to get unsure*

However, the interpretation of the Prophecy in HDM is not correct if you will insist it is the same as "our" Bible. That's what I wanted to point out.

I said earlier that Pullman's interpretation turns the Biblical story on its head. That's the point. It's not intended to be "correct" in the sense that Christians would prefer. But the symbolism that the prophecy draws from, about the Fall happening all over again - clearly, that IS from the Bible. The Bible in L-world, the Bible in our world... the Genesis story in both of them is practically the same, so why say it shouldn't be compared to our Bible?

It may be correct in Will's Bible, but Will's world, though it is supposed to be our universe, does not exist. Therefore, the Bible interpretation, in Will's world is not accurate and should not be compared to OUR Bible, and our world. That had always been MY point.

Will's world is our world. A fictional version of our world, then. What do you mean by the Bible interpretation in Will's world? There are a number of interpretations in Will's world, because his world is supposed to be ours. Catholics, Protestants, Methodists etc... they all disagree on various aspects of the Bible. If you mean Pullman's interpretation of the Bible, then please refer to what I said above.

Symbolism does not always equivalent fact. And perhaps, Pullman's use of recognizable symbols does not apply as simply to us as you, and many others, imply. Perhaps, it's not just about religion -- organized or not -- or even about God. Perhaps he is trying to explain our existence and purpose in this world, which is quite a feat, since Science never made any claim, nor pretentious intent to explain both.

Do you want to elaborate on this? Yeah, we could talk about Dust and how Pullman gives life and meaning to his fictional multiverse, but I was trying to keep the topic on the Fall and what it symbolises.

For one thing, Pullman did not intend to indoctrinate anyone with his books. These are works of fiction, as you clearly stated, written for his own enjoyment. Pullman, like any other writer, does not write for anyone but himself. I should know, I'm writer. I couldn't care less who reads my work -- that is the job of the publisher. You're concept that he wrote this with a specific readership in mind is just incorrect. He wrote it because he wanted to tell the story in his head.

He may not have had a specific readership in mind, but I think it's true to say that when a writer uses any kind of symbolism, he uses symbolism that he understands, and it's therefore likely that most of his readers will understand it too, being from the same world and all. Why didn't Pullman use Islam as his main focus, since religion is such a strong theme in the books? Because Christianity is the religion he's most familiar with, and it would also be true to say that the majority of readers, at least in the UK, would also be most familiar with Christianity.

Naturally, readers will be comparing the way Christianity is portrayed in HDM, especially in L-world, with the real world. And it is perfectly reasonable to do so.

But there is only one "true" interpretation of the Bible, in my opinion, and it is not the one that is described and used in HDM.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are so many interpretations of the Bible, how do we know which is the right one?

*Regards latest posts*
And I don't have the stamina...

Come on, Moony, don't you enjoy a bit of debate? Get those neurons firing.

[Seraphim]

I said earlier that Pullman's interpretation turns the Biblical story on its head. That's the point. It's not intended to be "correct" in the sense that Christians would prefer. But the symbolism that the prophecy draws from, about the Fall happening all over again - clearly, that IS from the Bible. The Bible in L-world, the Bible in our world... the Genesis story in both of them is practically the same, so why say it shouldn't be compared to our Bible?

The Prophecy drew the symbolism from the Fall...I agree that in HDM, the story about the Fall of mankind, whether it was in Lyra's or in Will's world, and perhaps in every world in that multiverse, is similar if not the same, and yes, the story can be compared to the Bible that we use --- the way it is explained in HDM - the Fall - is, what I've been trying to point out, different, and should not be taken as fact. Because in HDM the Fall, or the actual fall of mankind is SEX, which had been magnified by Will and Lyra's love scene under the trees, with the juicy red fruit. That is NOT the fall of mankind --- not in OUR Bible.

Will's world is our world. A fictional version of our world, then. What do you mean by the Bible interpretation in Will's world? There are a number of interpretations in Will's world, because his world is supposed to be ours. Catholics, Protestants, Methodists etc... they all disagree on various aspects of the Bible. If you mean Pullman's interpretation of the Bible, then please refer to what I said above.

Will's world is a fictional world based on our world. I don't see any openings to other universe anywhere, and I don't suppose you do too.

Harry Potter is also based in our world but those who tried to go through the barrier between platforms 9 and 10 in Kingscross ended up black and blue. I hope you understand the analogy.

Do you want to elaborate on this?

On Symbolism and writing? Maybe I should...in another thread.

Why didn't Pullman use Islam as his main focus, since religion is such a strong theme in the books? Because Christianity is the religion he's most familiar with, and it would also be true to say that the majority of readers, at least in the UK, would also be most familiar with Christianity.

This I want to discuss further. Again in another thread.

However, as a writer, when I want to get a message across, I use symbolism for that, and yes, symbolism that majority of readers would hopefully understand. Pullman's use of recognizable religion, particularly the Christian denomination in his symbolisms has another purpose, I believe. It is not so much to question christianity, or the existence of God, since he is admitedly an athiest, but rather the opposite. I think, like most supposed-athiests, Pullman is trying to find God and the reason for religion. Again, this belongs to another thread.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are so many interpretations of the Bible, how do we know which is the right one?

The fact that there are so many interpretations of the Bible proves that there is a right one. The law of averages states that at least one of them should be the correct one. Now to your question, which is the right interpretation? The one that leaves nothing to question, because the Bible is meant to enlighten us, not to throw us into the depths of darkness.

You should further your research. I'm pretty sure you'll find it someday.

[bethanwy]

Ralphie!
The long posts are scaring me!

[Jez]

The Prophecy drew the symbolism from the Fall...I agree that in HDM, the story about the Fall of mankind, whether it was in Lyra's or in Will's world, and perhaps in every world in that multiverse, is similar if not the same, and yes, the story can be compared to the Bible that we use...

Yay, looks like we agree on something.

...the way it is explained in HDM - the Fall - is, what I've been trying to point out, different, and should not be taken as fact. Because in HDM the Fall, or the actual fall of mankind is SEX, which had been magnified by Will and Lyra's love scene under the trees, with the juicy red fruit. That is NOT the fall of mankind --- not in OUR Bible.

Now, this bit I don't agree with. Yes, the Fall in HDM is portrayed differently from the actual Bible, mainly in that it becomes positive instead of bad. But I don't think that the Fall in HDM is sex. Firstly, it's still unclear whether or not Lyra and Will had sex. Personally, I don't think they did, but the scene was ambiguous in that regard so you can make of it what you will. Secondly, I think that reducing the Fall to sex misses out so much of what made that moment beautiful and later heartbreaking. It was Will and Lyra falling in love that was important. Obviously, the awakening of sexual feelings plays a big part in that, but their love means so much more than that.

And now I'm going to quote myself...

Will and Lyra falling in love represents them growing up, and gaining wisdom.

And here's where the account of the Fall in the actual Bible becomes similar to the one in HDM. The Fall in the Bible comes about because Eve disobeys God. And when Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree, they know good and evil. In other words, they gain wisdom. In HDM, Pullman relates that awakening to growing up. In L-world, this is physically manifested when daemons' forms become fixed. It's the move from innocence to experience.

Pullman's use of recognizable religion, particularly the Christian denomination in his symbolisms has another purpose, I believe. It is not so much to question christianity, or the existence of God, since he is admitedly an athiest, but rather the opposite. I think, like most supposed-athiests, Pullman is trying to find God and the reason for religion. Again, this belongs to another thread.

I think it may also be about trying to find spirituality in a world without God. In HDM, that spirituality and purpose is manifested in Dust. Dust which is both matter and spirit. Lyra and Will's love has this spiritual aspect to it - after they have Fallen, the Dust is strongly attracted to them.

The fact that there are so many interpretations of the Bible proves that there is a right one. The law of averages states that at least one of them should be the correct one. Now to your question, which is the right interpretation? The one that leaves nothing to question, because the Bible is meant to enlighten us, not to throw us into the depths of darkness.

You should further your research. I'm pretty sure you'll find it someday.

The one that leaves nothing to question... Does any interpretation of the Bible leave nothing to question? I don't know, I'm no expert on the Bible. Far from it.

[Seraphim]

Now, this bit I don't agree with. Yes, the Fall in HDM is portrayed differently from the actual Bible, mainly in that it becomes positive instead of bad. But I don't think that the Fall in HDM is sex. Firstly, it's still unclear whether or not Lyra and Will had sex.

Read between the lines. Pullman didn't need to say it outright. I will be posting a new thread about this ... just give me time to finish it....

And here's where the account of the Fall in the actual Bible becomes similar to the one in HDM. The Fall in the Bible comes about because Eve disobeys God. And when Adam and Eve eat the fruit of the tree, they know good and evil. In other words, they gain wisdom.

Incorrect. The Fall was Adam and Eve's desire to become God themselves. This is what I mean about not understanding the Bible's true account of the Eden Incident. They did not gain wisdom by disobeying God now did they? Because what is wisdom anyway? If what they did gave them the ability to know what is right from what is wrong, how do you define either? Who tells you what is right? Who tells you what is wrong? Clearly, mankind since that time never made any successful distinction between the two (trial and error is not wisdom) and we still end up consulting God anyway.

The Bible's account of the fall, is the fall from grace, not the gaining of wisdom. That is why it is called THE FALL.

In HDM, Pullman relates that awakening to growing up. In L-world, this is physically manifested when dæmons' forms become fixed. It's the move from innocence to experience.

I agree.

I think it may also be about trying to find spirituality in a world without God. In HDM, that spirituality and purpose is manifested in Dust. Dust which is both matter and spirit. Lyra and Will's love has this spiritual aspect to it - after they have Fallen, the Dust is strongly attracted to them.

That may be. I am very excited to read about the book of Dust and find out it's origin.

The one that leaves nothing to question... Does any interpretation of the Bible leave nothing to question? I don't know, I'm no expert on the Bible. Far from it.

Does any interpretation of the Bible leave nothing to question? Yes. There exists an interpretation so refined that the whole Bible is clearer than water. It's like reading a letter addressed to you.

[Undestined]

But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die! NO, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like the gods who know what is good and what is bad." The woman saw that the tree was good for food, and pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom

(Bold mine)
There, you see? Adam and Eve weren't wannabe gods, they were trying to gain WISDOM, just as Will and Lyra do when they fall in love.

Does any interpretation of the Bible leave nothing to question? Yes. There exists an interpretation so refined that the whole Bible is clearer than water. It's like reading a letter addressed to you.

Considering that you called a Catholic interpretation of the Fall wrong earlier (an interpretation that, strangely enough, I have never seen in any Catholic Bible), I assume that the single correct interpretation of the Bible that you declare exists belongs to whatever particular branch of Protestantism you belong to. Honestly, every faction of every religion thinks that their personal interpretation of their god's word is correct. Stop trying to evangelize us and start using some textual evidence in your arguments.

[Somewhat]

I know Bethan. I started this thread, and it's turned into one of those monster religious discussions...

[bethanwy]

I knew there was a reason why I hated religion so much.

[Jez]

Incorrect. The Fall was Adam and Eve's desire to become God themselves. This is what I mean about not understanding the Bible's true account of the Eden Incident. They did not gain wisdom by disobeying God now did they? Because what is wisdom anyway?

Luckily, Zodiac has already posted a quote from the Bible to refute this. I don't have a Bible to hand, but I thought I remembered it correctly that Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good and evil when they ate the fruit. They wanted to be like God, to gain the wisdom of God (i.e. knowledge of morality), but that doesn't necessarily mean they wanted to be God themselves.

If what they did gave them the ability to know what is right from what is wrong, how do you define either? Who tells you what is right? Who tells you what is wrong? Clearly, mankind since that time never made any successful distinction between the two (trial and error is not wisdom) and we still end up consulting God anyway.

I certainly disagree with this. I don't know if we can be absolutely sure what is right and what isn't, but mankind clearly has some kind of moral sense. And not everyone ends up consulting God. I'm sure most atheists will tell you that they are perfectly happy with their sense of morality and don't need to consult God to tell right from wrong. How can we consult God directly and ask him anyway?

I know this is going off-topic, but I'm also going to say that religious believers have hardly been more successful in the realm of morality than anyone else.

The Bible's account of the fall, is the fall from grace, not the gaining of wisdom. That is why it is called THE FALL.

From grace... into wisdom. From innocence... into experience. In the Bible, it's more like a move from grace to corruption. After all, God curses humanity. In HDM, this move from grace to wisdom is something to be welcomed. Lyra knew how to read the alethiometer by grace, and when she grows up she has to learn it by experience. Harder, but more rewarding.

[furbaby]

Lyra knew how to read the alethiometer by grace, and when she grows up she has to learn it by experience.

So who or what gave her that grace?

Interesting debate, this.

[Jez]

So who or what gave her that grace?

I don't know. Maybe it was just an innate ability.

[zemarl]

Does any interpretation of the Bible leave nothing to question? Yes. There exists an interpretation so refined that the whole Bible is clearer than water. It's like reading a letter addressed to you.

Considering that you called a Catholic interpretation of the Fall wrong earlier (an interpretation that, strangely enough, I have never seen in any Catholic Bible), I assume that the single correct interpretation of the Bible that you declare exists belongs to whatever particular branch of Protestantism you belong to. Honestly, every faction of every religion thinks that their personal interpretation of their god's word is correct. Stop trying to evangelize us and start using some textual evidence in your arguments.

that's a harsh way of putting it but yes, i'd like to know what interpretation you're talking about before you go claiming all these wonderful things.

as for lyra, Dust gave her grace, as far as my understanding of it goes. when she created more Dust by falling in love with will, Dust knew she was capable of learning it herself. the reason for her having the ability to begin with was that it was necessary according to the prophecy.