Is The Authority God?
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Is The Authority God?
I was thinking- is the Authority God??? Pullman never says,"The Authority is God." I know theres been tons of threads about this, but here goes- I'm a Christian so I did'nt agree with PP's ideas, but I accepted them as his and respected his beliefs. I was a bit distressed at TAS's middle to end parts. As beautifully written as the parts about mulefa, Will and Lyra's love, and The World of the Dead were, the majority was his religous beliefs. Mary Malones quote, we all know it, was," The Christian religion is just one big, convincing mistake, that's all." When I read that I choked. Afterwards, I assumed that that was her, that one character Mary Malone's, idea on it. But Pullman killed off the Authoriy, the Ancient of Days. Why did he have to do that??? Why couldnt they battle Satan and his demons, that would be more frightening. Sure, thats niche, battling the devil, but if you added up everything, the story would be good, maybe better. Lyra and Will could save people wrongfully imprisoned in the world of the dead, the place between Heaven and Hell. It would be pretty much the same. He didnt have to include stuff that radical. But thats my opinion.Maybe in TBOD he'll include good stuff about the church. Yeah I know they did bad things before, but the church has done good things too, right? But, anyway, thats my opinion. Plus, HDM are still the best books(also my opinion). BYE!
"Some of those that burn crosses
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
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Pantalaimon1234 - Armoured Bear
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This has been debated extensively, and this is what I think the authority is.
No, the authority is not god. literally in the story, he does share similar titles (I believe it was balthamos who listed off all the traditional titles of god, like Jehovah, Father, Creator etc to Will), but the emphasis was that he was NOT the Creator, nor was he omnipotent/all powerful. Whether there was a creator or not at one point in the history of hdm, pullman leaves open. I think the Authority was intended to be symbolic of the negative aspects of religion, namely the god that human beings cite as 'telling them to do this', like nuns who torture orphans, or men who beat their wives... since its quite obvious that everything taught (although not necessarily always lived) by religions says that such things are wrong. Pullman kills off that god, and in that context I agree that *that* god deserves to die. Because that god is a figment of human corruption, and is nothing like God as presented in religion (whether it be christianity, islam, etc). Pullman is agnostic, not atheistic. He has nothing against a belief in God, the concept of God, or the good aspects of religion... he just doesn't think there's enough evidence either way. His attack isn't against God, or even religion in general: it is against the negative use of religion/power by people to exploit their fellow human beings, and with that I have to agree.
Some of what he presents in the story is a bit exaggerated, like how nearly all priests are evil (although there was the one in Jordan who was hardly bad...), but I think that was done to illustrate his point against the corruption in religion. (he has since mentioned that he would have included more good priests here and there "just to show that they're not all bad").
No, the authority is not god. literally in the story, he does share similar titles (I believe it was balthamos who listed off all the traditional titles of god, like Jehovah, Father, Creator etc to Will), but the emphasis was that he was NOT the Creator, nor was he omnipotent/all powerful. Whether there was a creator or not at one point in the history of hdm, pullman leaves open. I think the Authority was intended to be symbolic of the negative aspects of religion, namely the god that human beings cite as 'telling them to do this', like nuns who torture orphans, or men who beat their wives... since its quite obvious that everything taught (although not necessarily always lived) by religions says that such things are wrong. Pullman kills off that god, and in that context I agree that *that* god deserves to die. Because that god is a figment of human corruption, and is nothing like God as presented in religion (whether it be christianity, islam, etc). Pullman is agnostic, not atheistic. He has nothing against a belief in God, the concept of God, or the good aspects of religion... he just doesn't think there's enough evidence either way. His attack isn't against God, or even religion in general: it is against the negative use of religion/power by people to exploit their fellow human beings, and with that I have to agree.
Some of what he presents in the story is a bit exaggerated, like how nearly all priests are evil (although there was the one in Jordan who was hardly bad...), but I think that was done to illustrate his point against the corruption in religion. (he has since mentioned that he would have included more good priests here and there "just to show that they're not all bad").
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nice points merlyn-i agree.but what of mary malones quote?SHE directly attacks religion-namely the christian one. Is that just HER opinion?
"Some of those that burn crosses
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
-
Pantalaimon1234 - Armoured Bear
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mary malone's quote saying that christianity is/was a very powerful mistake is her opinion, as a character... but pullman probably shares it too.
the Authority in His Dark Materials would presumably be the Christian one, sharing its names, et cetera... but considering the fact that it doesn't match up with what the Christian God is supposed to be... it's not.
about the priest at Jordan... the Intercessor wasn't at all bad... he was just... kinda... lazy. it said somewhere that early on, he had made it his point to look out for the spiritual welfare of Lyra... but then he gave up because she wasn't "spiritually promising."
about killing off the Authority, and why they couldn't have battled Satan and his demons... in His Dark Materials there wasn't really a Satan, or a Hell. the Kingdom of Heaven itself wasn't all that it was cooked up to be. everyone went to the Hellish World of the Dead, regardless of their actions or beliefs. it was just the promotion of conciousnes versus the defamation of conciousness.
why he had to put radical ideas in his books... the story probably came to him like that. there were rumours that the reason the book took so long was 'cause he had to edit out more blasphemy, but he denied that. and it's probably blaspemous enough considering the controversey it started (LoL, "worth of bonfire").
the Authority in His Dark Materials would presumably be the Christian one, sharing its names, et cetera... but considering the fact that it doesn't match up with what the Christian God is supposed to be... it's not.
about the priest at Jordan... the Intercessor wasn't at all bad... he was just... kinda... lazy. it said somewhere that early on, he had made it his point to look out for the spiritual welfare of Lyra... but then he gave up because she wasn't "spiritually promising."
about killing off the Authority, and why they couldn't have battled Satan and his demons... in His Dark Materials there wasn't really a Satan, or a Hell. the Kingdom of Heaven itself wasn't all that it was cooked up to be. everyone went to the Hellish World of the Dead, regardless of their actions or beliefs. it was just the promotion of conciousnes versus the defamation of conciousness.
why he had to put radical ideas in his books... the story probably came to him like that. there were rumours that the reason the book took so long was 'cause he had to edit out more blasphemy, but he denied that. and it's probably blaspemous enough considering the controversey it started (LoL, "worth of bonfire").
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
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of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
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jessia - Sraffie Queen
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Merlyn, I couldn't agree more with what you said. You can't argue with it, and it is exactly what I believe the Authority to be. Anything about a real God is irrelevant, the impostor that is the Authority is there to make a point.
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Although Meryln makes some interesting points, I still can't accept that Pullman created The Authority to be separate from God. The similar titles between The Authority and God, draws the conclusion that the God talked about in the Bible, is The Authority.
Pullman links the two directly to one another.
In doing this, you are left with two main possibilities, which are entwined:
1) There is no God.
2) God is not omnipotent.
The first possibility: There is no God.
The Authority mentioned in the book, is really the first being created...and has the most power. A kind of backwards evolution. This being prevents the world from functioning as it should, and keeps a firm grasp over all conscious races (ie: man, mulefa, witch, etc.)..so that they may do as it wills. This being is finally destroyed, thus the balance of life may be restored. This balance is that everything is continually re-used. From Dust, to Dust really.
The second possibility: God is not omnipotent.
The Authority is the creation with the ability to create. Unfortunately, this being is corrupt, and has a grasp over all conscious races. When this being dies, the cycle of Dust has a chance to continue what it was meant to do.
Obviously, those two possibilities are closely the same, if not identical.
What Pullman presents in his trilogy is that there is no creator. There is no God. Everything is connected through Dust.
The Bible is nothing more than The Authority's attempt to further ensnare the human race, as The Authority tries to hold onto its form. If anything, The Authority knew all about Dust and loathed it. Mostly because it knew, when it dies...there goes its form...scattered into every other living thing.
So really, God does not exist in the world of His Dark Materials.
Pullman's idea for this world involves both science, and reincarnation. Dust (matter with an attitude) makes up everything, and everything is made of Dust. There's your science. As for reincarnation, it's essentially the idea of a rebirth of the soul into another body. Instead of another body, Pullman takes it to more of a molecular level...where what you were, goes into everything that is.
I have no doubt that Pullman doesn't believe in God, and what he does believe in is the idea he has presented within his books. A sort of mixture between reincarnation and conscious matter.
Pullman links the two directly to one another.
In doing this, you are left with two main possibilities, which are entwined:
1) There is no God.
2) God is not omnipotent.
The first possibility: There is no God.
The Authority mentioned in the book, is really the first being created...and has the most power. A kind of backwards evolution. This being prevents the world from functioning as it should, and keeps a firm grasp over all conscious races (ie: man, mulefa, witch, etc.)..so that they may do as it wills. This being is finally destroyed, thus the balance of life may be restored. This balance is that everything is continually re-used. From Dust, to Dust really.
The second possibility: God is not omnipotent.
The Authority is the creation with the ability to create. Unfortunately, this being is corrupt, and has a grasp over all conscious races. When this being dies, the cycle of Dust has a chance to continue what it was meant to do.
Obviously, those two possibilities are closely the same, if not identical.
What Pullman presents in his trilogy is that there is no creator. There is no God. Everything is connected through Dust.
The Bible is nothing more than The Authority's attempt to further ensnare the human race, as The Authority tries to hold onto its form. If anything, The Authority knew all about Dust and loathed it. Mostly because it knew, when it dies...there goes its form...scattered into every other living thing.
So really, God does not exist in the world of His Dark Materials.
Pullman's idea for this world involves both science, and reincarnation. Dust (matter with an attitude) makes up everything, and everything is made of Dust. There's your science. As for reincarnation, it's essentially the idea of a rebirth of the soul into another body. Instead of another body, Pullman takes it to more of a molecular level...where what you were, goes into everything that is.
I have no doubt that Pullman doesn't believe in God, and what he does believe in is the idea he has presented within his books. A sort of mixture between reincarnation and conscious matter.
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aceblade - Gyptian
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I still agree with Merlyn and eloquent. Sorry, aceblade.
"Some of those that burn crosses
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
-
Pantalaimon1234 - Armoured Bear
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Gonna throw in a quote from PP here:
"[The Authority in His Dark Materials] is the God of the burners of heretics, the hangers of witches, the persecuters of Jews, the officials who recently flogged that poor girl in Nigeria who had the misfortune to become pregant after having been forced to have sex - all these people claim to know with absolute certainty that their God wants them to do these things. Well, I take them at their word, and I say in response that that God deserves to die."
- (In the Readerville Forum in February 2001, quoted on DarkMaterials.Com)
"[The Authority in His Dark Materials] is the God of the burners of heretics, the hangers of witches, the persecuters of Jews, the officials who recently flogged that poor girl in Nigeria who had the misfortune to become pregant after having been forced to have sex - all these people claim to know with absolute certainty that their God wants them to do these things. Well, I take them at their word, and I say in response that that God deserves to die."
- (In the Readerville Forum in February 2001, quoted on DarkMaterials.Com)
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The second possibility: God is not omnipotent.
The Authority is the creation with the ability to create.[/quote]
When did the Authority ever have the power to create? He was just a tyrant.
The Authority is the creation with the ability to create.[/quote]
When did the Authority ever have the power to create? He was just a tyrant.
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Fine line, but the harpies are never really explained how they came into existance...and then there are people being changed into angels.
If The Authority has anything to do with those, then they could certainly be considered creations.
But really, that point I brought up is fairly an insignicant piece to the jist of what I wrote in that post.
That God, whom all those people have referred to over time, is the Christian God. Those people weren't referring to something else.
So really, if Pullman wants someone to die, it should be those people and their bogus ideas.
If The Authority has anything to do with those, then they could certainly be considered creations.
But really, that point I brought up is fairly an insignicant piece to the jist of what I wrote in that post.
"[The Authority in His Dark Materials] is the God of the burners of heretics, the hangers of witches, the persecuters of Jews, the officials who recently flogged that poor girl in Nigeria who had the misfortune to become pregant after having been forced to have sex - all these people claim to know with absolute certainty that their God wants them to do these things. Well, I take them at their word, and I say in response that that God deserves to die."
That God, whom all those people have referred to over time, is the Christian God. Those people weren't referring to something else.
So really, if Pullman wants someone to die, it should be those people and their bogus ideas.
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aceblade - Gyptian
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jessia wrote:the Authority in His Dark Materials would presumably be the Christian one, sharing its names, et cetera... but considering the fact that it doesn't match up with what the Christian God is supposed to be... it's not.
but isn't that the point? the authority has fooled people into believing that he is god, and the bible is propoganda to make you believe he is omnipotent and perfect; so he;s not the god he's 'supposed' to be, but those crazy christians suppose he is
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Kinders - Good egg
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That God, whom all those people have referred to over time, is the Christian God. Those people weren't referring to something else.
So really, if Pullman wants someone to die, it should be those people and their bogus ideas.
They might have been claiming to refer to the Christian God, but that God (nor any god in any religion) doesn't back what it is that they're doing (from what is taught in the Bible, Quran etc). Here's a quote from the Chronicles of Narnia that might help to explain the idea:
"If any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. " -Aslan,
- Tristan
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In His Dark Materials, God is a name, not God.
Perhaps harpies were creations of the Authority and his angels. When people don't properly die and become angels... does the Bible even explain that?
Look up Enoch (Metatron) in the Bible. I looked it up in my friend's student bible that has all these side notes... Enoch didn't die. God just took him.
aceblade wrote:... the harpies are never really explained how they came into existance...and then there are people being changed into angels.
Perhaps harpies were creations of the Authority and his angels. When people don't properly die and become angels... does the Bible even explain that?
Look up Enoch (Metatron) in the Bible. I looked it up in my friend's student bible that has all these side notes... Enoch didn't die. God just took him.
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
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of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
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jessia - Sraffie Queen
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Heres my theory on HDM angels. When a person dies, the dæmon vanishes, right? So, maybe that person has such a will to live they just don't die.(alright-I'll go out and say it-the game ChronoCross and HDM show some similarities. You can go to differant worlds, not through windows but through "wormholes"Theres more, but no time)And instead, they and their dæmon combine to form a sort of fusion. Everythings the same cept they cant see their dæmon and they dont have flest. What do you think?
"Some of those that burn crosses
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
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Pantalaimon1234 - Armoured Bear
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That's kinda how i thought of it. It seems that the Dust that made up the ghost and the dæmon coalesced into a single being after the body died under some circumstances.
ChronoCross, eh? My brother was just playing it when the same thing struck me: multi-world travel, a bladed weapon with its own intentions (the Masamune).... and stuff I can't think of right now.
ChronoCross, eh? My brother was just playing it when the same thing struck me: multi-world travel, a bladed weapon with its own intentions (the Masamune).... and stuff I can't think of right now.
*sigh* Well, at least you tried.
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Yeah, and Serge is an angel.And theres sorta a world of the dead.(the sea of eden.you meet people from ChronoTrigger there and you meet your girlfriends dad,Miguel, and you battle Fate, which is practicly the Authority.
----Pan1234
----Pan1234
"Some of those that burn crosses
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
are the same that hold office"
Rage Against the Machine~~~Killing in the name
-
Pantalaimon1234 - Armoured Bear
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jessica wrote:When people don't properly die and become angels... does the Bible even explain that?
Throughout the Bible, it is stressed how different angels are from people.
But, in case you are wondering, people do not become angels in death..no matter how they leave the earth.
You're right, Enoch was taken from the earth by God. So, no left over body basically.
He wasn't the only one though. Moses was also taken in the same manner. I'm pretty sure those are the only two recorded of in the Bible. Although, in Revelations, in regards to End Times, it speaks of those who know Christ to be taken just the same. *POOF*! And you're gone.
An interesting tidbit of info can be found in Matthew 15: 1-8.
To sum it up, Peter, James and John go up a high mountain with Jesus. At the top of the mountain Jesus transfigures before the group and is seen speaking with Moses and Elijah. Now, Peter, James and John know both Moses and Elijah are dead though, and yet they see them. They don't see them as angels though because then they tell Jesus that they are going to set up shelters for the three of them (Moses, Elijah, and Jesus).
So, God took Moses, *POOF*, from the Earth...and yet...no angel-like appearance.
Meryln wrote:They might have been claiming to refer to the Christian God, but that God (nor any god in any religion) doesn't back what it is that they're doing (from what is taught in the Bible, Quran etc).
Yes, I agree with you, and I understand your Narnia quote too. What I'm getting at though is that these people who have done such awful things in the name of God, didn't make up a god. They did those things in the name of God. Of course God doesn't agree with it...but those people who claim to refer to the Christian God....ARE referring to the Christian God in what they say. But if we are to look at their actions, and we know what we believe, we certainly know THEY do not know the God they speak of.
It certainly isn't right what those people did/and are doing.
God had nothing to do with those people, and He did not encourage them.
Fact remains that those people were/are using His name in committing those acts.
So, I understand what you mean. They may swear by His name, but they are doing the work of another. In your example of Narnia, it was Tash.
There was Aslan, and Tash. Likewise, there is God and Satan.
In HDM, there is God....and your "bad guy" would be The Authority. Only, the two are one in the same. God in the Bible, turns out to be The Authority. So if anything is done in God's name (in HDM, in the Bible), it can't be good because you're only following The Authority (the tyrant). .
The Narnia quote reminds me of a Biblical quote...but all I can think of is the two sons parable...hmmmm
Sorry for taking so long to reply. It was Canada day....and somehow I ended up naked in Mexico.
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aceblade - Gyptian
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oka, i only brought up enoch 'cause he was metatron... interesting lesson though.
"o stars, isn't it from you that the lover's desire for the face
of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
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of his beloved arises? doesn't his secret insight
into her pure features come from the pure constellations?"
- from rainer maria rilke's third elegy
sign up and help edit+create his dark materials wiki articles for bridgetothestars!
http://www.bridgetothestars.net/wiki/index.php
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jessia - Sraffie Queen
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