I can't believe she lost it, was anyone else angry at this?

[Rachaman]

ukh...I dunno...I'm still pissed about it...

You sound too young to be drinking.

Just to clarify Rosie's above comment, the key word is in bold.

If Nixy isn't aware of UK slang, then he may not know that pissed=drunk.

I think anyone would have been upset by many aspects of the ending, but the point is that they were right given the meanings of the story being told. That's the point being made by others here.

[Nixy]

ok I'm whatever you like...can we just drop it, i'm sort of getting annoying...

----

and as a matter of fact, SHE isn't familiar with that expression...
oh wow, it makes much more sense now! thank you...

Mod edit: Double posts merged again, please use the edit button to add to your posts

[Pan_Fan]

i was really sad, but i do agree--it does add beauty to the story in a way.

[Nixy]

in a way...but why does it always have to be justified, and analysed, psychlogically, and morally...can't it be just a story...I mean, obviously, it'll relate to stuff that happens in life...but isn't the point if stories to be able to escape from all those notions...at least to me it is, that's basicly why I read fantasy...to forget anything that relates to real life. So I like it when authors tell a story, for the heck of telling a story...

[Enitharmon]

in a way...but why does it always have to be justified, and analysed, psychlogically, and morally...can't it be just a story...I mean, obviously, it'll relate to stuff that happens in life...but isn't the point if stories to be able to escape from all those notions...at least to me it is, that's basicly why I read fantasy...to forget anything that relates to real life. So I like it when authors tell a story, for the heck of telling a story...

My first instinct is to say that that is a very sad and superficial way of looking at things. But I won't, because you've asked good questions that merit a considered answer.

I happen to think that there's no such thing as 'just a story', which exists outside its context. But even if there were, we probably wouldn't find it very satisfactory. We might get a good feeling while we are reading it, but it wouldn't last too long afterwards. I personally read large quantities of crime fiction (I write it too) and to a large extent most (not all) of them are disposable. They all have something to say, though, about more than just somebody getting killed and a detective finding out who did it. There are subtle currents about the society in which the crime takes place.

You call HDM 'fantasy'. I personally don't like fantasy as a genre and I don't regard HDM as 'fantasy' as such - I prefer to call it Allegorical Romance. That might not be terribly important but one person who has denied writing a work of 'fantasy' is Philip Pullman himself, who has described it as a work of 'gritty realism'. I'd challenge that description on a technicality, myself, but Philip Pullman is in many ways an angry man with lots to say about the world. He's a former English teacher who believes passionately in literature as a way of changing the world. He draws on Milton and Blake, both of them revolutionaries who used their art to savage a corrupt church. You could try what happened to me, reading about Bolvagar a couple of weeks after visiting Auschwitz, and tell me there wasn't a terrible message there. When Northern Lights was first published, in 1995, the Prime Minister-ship of a woman not unlike Marisa Coulter (let's leave the glamorous aspect aside for a moment) was fresh in the minds of even teenage readers.

Why not analyse? If something has a big impact on you, makes you cry, makes you want to change the world, makes you want to go straight back to the beginning and read it all again, don't you feel curious about how it works, why it had that effect on you? And if you don't, why do you join a community which has been happily analysing it for several years? One thing you gain from analysis and discussion is having your eyes opened to things you may not have noticed before, and that should increase your enjoyment when you read it again. Ask your English teacher - she's really not there just to make your life miserable, you know!

Anyway, Nixy, I hope you feel I've given your question due attention and haven't been sarcastic.

[Zalgsar]

Well said, Enitharmon. I prefer to call HDM speculative fiction myself, as there are many ways to look at it. I'm actually taking a course at my highschool where we only study Horror, Sci-Fi and Fantasy literature. Nixy, you should check to see if there's anything like this at your school.

[Nixy]

why do you join a community which has been happily analysing it for several years? One thing you gain from analysis and discussion is having your eyes opened to things you may not have noticed before, and that should increase your enjoyment when you read it again. Ask your English teacher - she's really not there just to make your life miserable, you know!

You're right of course, I'm not saying it's totally pointless. And you can't seriously be telling me the community is only dedicated to justifying and literary analysis! I mean, that would be one use for it, but can't you also just apreciate something, just for the heck of it. But you're right, I agree, you make a good point, and no you weren't sarcastic, I apreciate that, because I was being serious. Sometimes you're forced to notice something even if you're not really trying to analyse. And the message will go through even if you don't. I get the message Pullman was trying to convey, I get the point he was trying to make, and I probably noticed all the things that you mentioned, without realising it, but I was able to enjoy the story too...

I only said "fantasy" for lack of a better word. I know it's not really fantasy. I probably should have said fiction. And thanks for all the info on Pullman, it's very interesting. But it's nice to be able to enjoy something, understand the subtelties and hidden messages, without over-thinking it too much. It ca work that way. I'm living proof! Like I said, Pullman got to me. But thanks for taking the time to reply.

And unfortunately, we don't study this kind of thing in English at my school. We're doing Frankenstein this year. But we rarely do this sort of thing. HDM is not really sci-fi, but it does have some tendancies to be. But I think I'll mention it to my English teacher! I go to a french school actually, so English is considerably easy, we rarely study literature in depth...that's why I try to read a lot in English, the level at my school is pitiful. Most people can't even read Winnie the Pooh!

But back to HDM, just for the record, I get it! I just didnt want to...
I forgot my point...

[Rachaman]

and as a matter of fact, SHE isn't familiar with that expression...
oh wow, it makes much more sense now! thank you...

You're welcome. Many were sure I was female for my first hundred posts or so! It's amazing how, in the absence of normal queues, the way we look for and try to apply meanings. This follows from everything to picking a gender based on the tonality of writing to seeing faces in nebulae.

[Nixy]

That's funny, first 100 posts!? And you didn't say anything to rectify that? How did they finally work out that you were a guy?

[zemarl]

That's funny, first 100 posts!? And you didn't say anything to rectify that? How did they finally work out that you were a guy?

i think usually if people don't know it's because the subject doesn't come up. when i first joined some people were shocked when i posted a pic in the cam wars (this would be well after reaching megamouth status i believe) because they either hadn't seen most of my posts, or couldn't honestly judge from them. *cough* alec *cough*

[Cookiemonster]

Many were sure I was female for my first hundred posts or so!

Really? I always had you pegged as male. Yay me!

[/random]

[Boz]

i totally agree but why did pp make it so there couldn't live in a different world indeffenatly

[AUST]

i totally agree but why did pp make it so there couldn't live in a different world indeffenatly

So they couldn't stay together...

[Halo Nerd]

Why be shocked? You know it's coming from the very first book. But I can't remember the quote right now, so...

Yeah, I think it was the Witch Consul in Trollesund, he talks about her ability to read the Alethiometer and how grown adults can't comprehend it. She askes fearfully if she'll forget how to when she grows up and the consul replies that he doesn't know I believe... TIME TO RE-READ!

[Bellerophon]

You call HDM 'fantasy'. I personally don't like fantasy as a genre and I don't regard HDM as 'fantasy' as such - I prefer to call it Allegorical Romance. That might not be terribly important but one person who has denied writing a work of 'fantasy' is Philip Pullman himself, who has described it as a work of 'gritty realism'.

I agree that HDM isn't conventional fantasy literature, but I dare dispute Pullman's characterization of his work as 'gritty realism.' Unless he's done some math that would make Stephen Hawking blush, that's a bit of a stretch. If we wish to more precisely categorize HDM, I think there's an element of mythopoeia that's worth consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoeia

Re: On the Marionette Theater -- I believe Pullman admitted in an interview that he was influenced by von Kleist around the time this thread began. It's a fascinating read, and aspiring writers should note the breadth of Pullman's education.