Baruch and Balthamos sexuality debate

[daemon_light]

I really like Balthamos and Barach's relationship. They truly love eachother. It certainly seems that Phil wanted us to view their love in a romantic sense.

[Enitharmon]

[...] For Spirits, when they please,
Can either sex assume, or both, so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
Not tied or manacled with joint and limb,
Nor founded in the brittle strength of bones,
Like cumbrous flesh, but, in what shape they choose,
Dilated or condensed, bright or obscure,
Can execute their aery purposes
And works of love or enmity fulfil.

[Paradise Lost, Book I, 423-431]

[bee]

I really like Balthamos and Barach's relationship. They truly love eachother. It certainly seems that Phil wanted us to view their love in a romantic sense.

I agree. I love them together. They had the complete utter love for each other that Will and Lyra discover at the end. I cried when Baruch died--he had to be separated from his love with no goodbye and no promise of when they'd see each other again, if ever. Twas tragic.

In reply to the actual topic, I think they do have gender, and are gay. Although they appear as human throughout the book, I think no matter what shape they take they're always going to maintain the same gender.

[daemon_light]

In reply to the actual topic, I think they do have gender, and are gay. Although they appear as human throughout the book, I think no matter what shape they take they're always going to maintain the same gender.

I don't know... maybe the whole point behind it was that it didn't matter what gender they were (maybe making a subtle "gay rights" message)

[the31337ofPurgatory]

I don't think he explicitly tried to send a "gay rights" message through his books. I think he just wanted to show two angels that loved each other and with the way the story had to be told - it seemed right to Philip Pullman to make them both men. I'm almost certain that Pullman would support gay rights and really any eradication of discrimination. But I don't personally think he meant their B&B's love for each other to be a gay rights message.

and to answer the question - no I don't think they're gay. They just love each other. It's not so much in a romantic way as simply a very intense spiritual bond between them. It could be more related to romantic love than say brotherly love or those kinds of things, but no I don't think this is really a case of romantic love as we usually percieve it.

[Enitharmon]

and to answer the question - no I don't think they're gay.

Come off it - they are quite deliberately portrayed as a pair of screaming queans.

[Rachaman]

I don't think he explicitly tried to send a "gay rights" message through his books. I think he just wanted to show two angels that loved each other and with the way the story had to be told - it seemed right to Philip Pullman to make them both men.

Again, PP knew perfectly well what we was doing when he made them both male. He knew exactly how the characters would be perceived.

[daemon_light]

When I first saw them together I first thought they were gay, but then after reading it more it seemed less likely. It's a possible portrayal of romantic love between two men, but then again it could be a strong bond. It depends on the reader I would think.

[Enitharmon]

I don't understand this - it's almost as though some folks have a problem with the idea. But Balthamos (in particular) and Baruch couldn't be more camp if they were Kenneth Williams and Hugh Paddick running the Bona Angelic Escort Agency. And you can bet your sweet buppy that PP had Williams and Paddick in his mind when he wrote about B & B.